This is Hacker Public Radio Episode 3,676 from Monday the 5th of September 2022.
Today's show is entitled, HPR Community News for August 2022.
It is part of the series HPR Community News.
It is hosted by HPR volunteers Ron Dave Ken and Monochromek and is about 176 minutes
long.
It carries an explicit flag.
The summary is, join us for this near 3-hour saga where HPR volunteers talk about
shows released in comments posted in August 2022.
Hi everybody, my name is Ken Falon and you're listening to another episode of Hacker
Public Radio.
This is the Community News for August 2022, joining me this evening is Dave Low, Dave Morris
from Edinburgh and Ron Ron from Baltimore and I'm calling in from the Netherlands.
Community News is a monthly look at what's been going on in the HPR community and it's
a regular show scheduled for the first Monday of the month, anyone can join but we like
people to have listened to all the episodes so we can give feedback on them.
And as ever, Dave will introduce the news.
Yes, we have two new host, two, that's wonderful.
We have Starship who was a commenter for a bit and I think we sort of
hinted.
Oh, you could say so.
Oh, really?
Yes.
And he has seized on that very thing and we've got, I think, not quite sure how he pronounced,
I would not go for the simplest one, simplest pronunciation hyper-nike is it?
Yes, that's what I use in the text to speech in here.
Yep, yep.
Okay, well if it's wrong, please let us know.
Right.
I explained what we're doing here and so let's go into it.
First of all, we go to last one's show and see if there was any comments or observations.
And the first show was the hit for your community news itself and Mike Ray says, API, I would
use the API if there was one.
I have not published a show in years despite having a lot of subjects to talk about.
I posted the last one before the hit, the FTP option went away.
For some reason, I have an version to fighting with what I see as a complex number of steps
necessary to publish a show, especially as I would never publish a show without complex
notes.
And I would enjoy enjoying writing a client for the API, possibly in parallel, since Pearl
is the best computer programming language ever invented.
Says Mike.
Yes, Mike, yes, well, what can I say?
Yes, I know.
No, I'm head being hit.
Yeah.
Can I see how you're just sending your opinions on this particular audience?
No, I don't know.
So Kevin O'Brien says, coming number two, high wins and this is a comment about the fact
that we discussed what it would be like to drive the RV that he was describing in
high wins.
We didn't have much problem with wins for two reasons.
First, when you drive more slowly, there is less chance a win to blow you around.
Secondly, our truck is bigger than a pick-up.
It's a freight-liner sport chassis.
So those, like, one that you've got to drive a section in the front and you've got to
see, or a sleeping compartment behind them, those that hit your area.
All right, pretty cool.
Pretty cool.
Yep.
Still, I still feel it might be a bit wobbly and a strong win, but maybe they're avoiding
the wins.
It's a good thing to do.
I live in Scotland when the across-wind is a thing.
Indeed.
So the first real show of the month was registered in memory, which is not a bit confused
with ECC memory, although memory modules often use both technologies by JWP, who is
making me realize how little I know about computer hardware since I stopped finding it interesting.
Yeah, same here, same here.
I'm getting some useful stuff from JWP here, and yeah, I didn't know any of it.
Really?
Just knew that was memory.
That was it.
Yeah, I'm really loving all his trips back through these various, like hardware issues
and it just reminds me much how much I hate making hardware decisions because they always
seem to be wrong.
Yeah, absolutely.
Hello, HPR, and this is from Stashe F, long time listener for some color.
A good great job.
Yeah.
Nice to meet you.
He was very, he was very quick, he was in and out, and you know, he was through the
curry doors very fast, but good to have him on board.
Yeah, I think you took our company to introduce yourself very literally, I have the next
time he's passed on through, he can come into the janitor's cafe cafeteria and sit down
and we'll have a cup of coffee and ask some person of questions that we might be able
to get more chills out of them.
And he does go on, sorry, as I was going to say, although maybe just getting in and giving
that quick one is a good way to do it because I still have a, I think, a, how I got into
tech episode of using somewhere on my hard drive that never actually got published.
Yep.
Well, speaking of which stash F is about to come up later on with the how I go into
tech shows.
See, we put, we kicked him up on the mop of doom there, just as he told he was leaving
the building.
So he threw the mop down and, when I was doing my like, yeah, yeah, I said, you need a drawing
out.
We need to have visual representation of I think, I have had this idea of doing
you show where I give a tour around HDR towers passing by the, yeah, the coffee
corner and the, the, the, the, the garage section where all the RVs are on the fold up
bikes.
And then at the back is the river where people are fresh wars of swimming, etc.
And we couldn't, if somebody could do a screen for that one, then, you know, of course,
in the people, as you walk past the door, you hear a tattoo and the various different people
over the kind of awesome, also sounds like an HDR text adventure.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Right there.
Hi, yes, yes, yes.
Norist, who has, ultimately possibly as yes, unaware that he has volunteered himself to
take over the free culture podcast page.
I don't know, have been broken that sad news to, as yes, I don't know.
I don't actually, you know what, we went back, we went back, we went back, we would pretend
you didn't hear that, and you would pretend you didn't hear that.
Using the data of the org feed to create the website, and this is, this is excellent
in so far as, I don't think you can recreate the website, but you can create everything
else based on the RSS feed.
And there were a few things in here that we were missing tags should definitely be included
into the web page, but I think we've discussed that before, if they, to put the structure
that we have for the internet archive pages into the, into the, to the, I'll create an
indeed wrong for your HDR generation website, and they're also.
Yeah.
Yep.
Yeah, he did sort of inspire me to do my episode too, since he's really been cranking
out some nice episodes on this, to get out of there.
Yeah.
It was a great idea actually, I thought it sounded very impressive, what he put
it down there, as a, as a, as a challenge, if I think he was going for there, so yeah, good
for him.
Now, brilliant.
And indeed, if there's stuff that we can add to the feed, we will do that to make it easier
for people to store up our data, because that's what we're all about sharing knowledge.
So, really cool, I really was chuffed.
This is one of those that you're listening to, and you go, hmm, did somebody just
follow him to your, for HBR here?
And the following day, we had been RC with BSD for Linux users, and this was my personal
opinion, a fantastic show.
As is, reminded me, the enthusiasm I had for Linux, when I came to Linux, and it had
me wondering, should I, should I maybe install the BSD disturbives, or BSD not to stroke,
it's not to stroke, it's a flavor, flavor, thank you, flavor, BSD flavor to see, just to see.
Yeah, I've always, I'm like, I'm sort of the same, like, I've read about them a lot.
I remember when Dragonfly BSD was first introduced, I just never, like, got around to either
loading it on a hardware, or trying it into the M.
I have a slight reluctance, which is, not justified at all, but just because I spent a few
years using the original BSD versions back in the day, and some of those unique
versions were really clunky, but then, so with some of the non-BSDs, we had a system
system 5, was it?
Well, it was, it called, the one that ran on HP's, HP UX, that's a very strange beast, that
was a really, really, unusable version of Unix, I found, it never did, you know, if you
wanted to delete something, you had to do control-lage, but only when there was a following
wind, you know, it was better just to delete the whole damn line and then type it in again.
Those sorts of things, nobody seemed to know how it fixed that.
So yeah, yeah, it's, so I really, I should, we actually have a go at this, I see that
the cloud do is running a BSD variant on a, one of these level, the triply PC's, so
I think I should do, how's it going to flavor?
The audio is, he also commented so, oh, shall I do his, yeah, yeah, Claudio M says, excellent
breakdown of BSD, great coverage of BSD and its descendants, thoroughly enjoyed it, well done.
I had a different comment plan, which went a bit long, I too tend to ramble a bit, so,
as Ken advises, I decided to make it personal response to this show, which I'll upload soon,
I'm over due for a show anyway, smiley face.
Yes, yes.
Do you want to take the lexon?
Sure.
The next comment is by Norist, why use open BSD and 3BSD?
My favorite BSD is open BSD, for all the reasons you describe, I use open BSD in my home
router because of the project's focus on security, I also have a think pad mostly runs
Linux, but I also have a dual boot open BSD current, I use 3BSD on my home server for
jails, manage with low-gauge and ZFS, cool and Phoenix says suggestion, great video, it will
be amazing if you create a C programming series, boss, well, I like to show you, so do
it shows another stop, please, it was a video with this, no, did you just let us
respond?
I don't know, maybe, Phoenix, you need to record the show now,
even if you are a farmer, because how do you manage to get through our anti-spam selection?
Yes, absolutely, it was a sleep that day, I think.
Yes, yes, but I find that people call videos podcast and podcast videos in various contexts,
but I didn't pay a credit either, honestly, I think you did mention C programming during
the episode.
Kevin Sooran says, I think it's my turn, isn't it?
Yeah, go for it.
I love the show, fantastic show and great show notes, I hope you get more from you.
Yes, could show more, yeah, yeah, absolutely, some excellent stuff.
I noticed with a lovely little show about the important of small toy projects, and this
was inspired by the Haskell show, HPR355A's, how I'm learning Haskell by Tukutor Natal,
if I've not mistaken.
Yeah, just do something, small project, nothing big.
Yeah, exactly.
He did lovely image, where they've got the various different takes, this is where
he takes freeculturepugcasts.org feed and all not feed, but list, and uses it, and then puts
the figures out how recent they've been doing the shows, and then if they're doing okay,
a little behind or pub feed, and that would be an excellent one for that site.
That's, I'd need a lot of love and attention actually, and stuff like this would be
very good for us.
Yep, yep, the, I wrote a script to do some of this, but it's not had any attention for, I
don't know, a couple of years or something, so yeah, that whole project does need some
some TLC, I think, yeah, it was brought up fairly fast to do the fast thing, and it's
a good idea, it's just some TLC, it's no harm.
And, role, do you want to do the count?
Sure, let me scroll down there, let's see, posted by some guy on the internet, love this
show.
I love this type of content, the ability to create from thin air, whatever you want, even
if it's not exactly in demand, it's always feels like I'm listening to a mage, craft
things, new magical items, just because of the other one was out of reach.
Perfect.
And nicely said, okay, and from the, man himself, small times this had meant how some
guy on the internet maintains their Linux box part one, I was like to see that too in
the show, part one, and yeah, this was a, it's about backing up and stuff, not how I would
do it, but then again, how I'm doing it, so frequently, you've had the last
laugh.
That's a, yeah, I'm, I think, enjoy the way he, go ahead over, sorry, Ken, I was just
going to say, yeah, I'm thinking some guy on the internet is slowly not becoming such
a small time cis admin, I mean, yeah, he's really, really embraced something, I mean,
his backups are way more intricate and consistent than mine or yes, yeah, it's interesting
to take on the, on the, the solution, yeah, quite impressive, actually, yeah, I love the,
yeah, echo, good heavens, yeah, that's something you'd all just see in the dark up script.
Fantastic.
And working, Brian says, thank you, thanks for the shout out, thank you for sharing
how you maintain the system, the sent full folder is well worth backing up, keep up the
good work, enjoy your show and look forward to hearing more.
And Kevin O'Brien says, thank you, thanks for the shout out, I think all of us share our
information to help each other and I love your shows.
Super, the Linux and those, HPRs in our working, and this was a feedback on the show that
I did.
Kevin says, painful, this painful to listen to and provided zero value, how do we get
the Linux in those kicked off, HPR, right, not the most positive comment ever, but there's,
there's going to be more of that unfortunately, some of it for me is all, very, very
old, if some guy on the internet says, I have more listeners than stars in the universe,
if I got a great laugh from this show, more listeners than people in the galaxy,
low.
That's the first time I've ever heard Martin clearly, his audio is usually too low for
me to hear, playing the Ken Sandbite was a nice touch as well, good stuff, excellent.
You can trust some guy on the internet to bring the positive out of people a lot.
Yes, some touchy guy is developing a HPR static site generator, generating a lot of spam
in my inbox, cause I see all your commits.
Yeah, they'll just let anybody do that sort of thingly, as well, shall I read the comment?
Please do you go from, let's say, what you're doing for a start, describe your show.
In this episode, Rowan, Waw, talks about generating a static site web, static site generator
for HPR, it's right now, it's based in that arcane pearl language, everybody keeps talking
about, and using the template toolkit, which is actually a very awesome module for pearl.
It's amazing what you can do with it, it really is.
I don't know if you want a quick status update, I think I've done it.
Please, yes, now will be a good time for a start resultist.
Okay, I do, I think, I'd say I'm like at that 95% stage now, there's some more feeds
I need to generate in RSS, but I think I have all the pages working.
There's some cute little, not quite looking exactly like the HPR tweaks like CSS or maybe
just changing the HTML a little bit, and the only other thing I can't do now is the number
of days until the next episode is, or next slot is open, but I think I have all the other
dynamic stuff figured out at this point with your help there, thank you.
We have, you could cheese actually, and use the StartStopPHP page, a lot of that stuff
is coming from the StartStopPHP page, and you could kind of take it from there.
I don't know what your approach is, what, if you can fix it using the tooling, that's
great, but if you can't, yeah, I think the whole uploading stuff anyway is always going
to be for the short term, well for the short medium term is going to need the database,
and it's going to need to be a more in place otherwise we can't block the reservations.
Right, right, I know, yeah, I can look into it, I can maybe just have a second script that
runs or just add something specific for the generator to grab it and parse that somehow, but
everything else I've been able to get from using SQLite from the dump using that converter
script I found, so that's nice, so we don't really, you know, at some point if we switch over
to, you know, that directly, I mean, the coach, you know, will work particularly if we keep
the same schema and then we can work on it to change the schema.
I actually want to fix a lot of the pages as well as I think those two all over the shop,
but you can do what you're doing, then we switch over and then we can do the fix.
Okay, sounds good, so yeah, so I guess my biggest thing now is just if I can get a few more eyes
on the page with just like this doesn't quite look right or this doesn't work or you miss
this link, I mean, I've run a link, I can't remember what the tool is off the top of my head right
now that goes through and it'll tell me and I can sort of guess which ones are just because
they're pointing, you know, at something I haven't done and then there's some pages, I'm just
not going to do and I, you know, the fix, the links, whatever, if you make it good, if you can
go ahead over, I said overall, I'm making a good progress. Yeah, yes, and some of the pages
we're not, if you're baking it out against wall, some of the pages we can maybe just get rid of or
can fix one fix. Okay, yeah, anyway, some guy in the internet says more magic, I didn't know
how you guys remember all these languages, I have to jump from jump into the man page for almost
everything is parallel one of your daily languages and is it better for databases than Python,
great show, so you can ask that yourself. Yeah, so like I think I mentioned in my episode,
I did get into Pearl early, like in my early days, that was sort of the CGI scripting language
for doing anything dynamic at the time and I've done some stuff with it over the years. I think
part of it is you'll find a more programming you do, there's just a lot of similarities in
concepts between programming languages. So once you sort of grasp that it's like, oh, I just
need to figure out how to write it correctly. I mean, there's more concepts you learn, some languages
have concepts like, you know, you get into maps or closures and all that fun stuff and that's
little funky Pearl. This is actually taking me probably longer than I would have because
it's been so long since I've used Pearl and Pearl has some funky ways to do argument passing
and returning just based on it's, I guess, age and the concepts, so you actually get into pointer
the referencing and all sorts of fun stuff that made my head spend a little bit until I finally got
things working. Yes, but actually that type of thing though, which it looks really
logical after it. Yeah, the templing language is actually made, that's sort of the nice and easy
part. It was the actual site generator itself, like the the program part that where things like
took me a little while sometimes, like I like the function logic would work, but then it was just like
getting the variables into it and out of it, which was part part. Yes, yes, it's a bit that Pearl
does have some strange and wonderful ways about it, but it's quite powerful, once you get
it head around some of the witnesses. I think the first project I ever wrote was we were running,
which is starting to run unique systems, we were running yellow pages on it and yellow pages this
thing that lets you identify the groupings of your users and give permissions and access to things,
but it's a very fragile structure and it's a sort of tree-like thing, which if it gets on balance,
things go completely bad, and we were loading users into this thing and it was going to really
bad, so you have to balance it, but there's no tools to do, well there weren't any tools at that
point, so I wrote a Pearl script which absorbed all of this weird tree structure thing with internal
links between the the the data structure and then balanced that and then wrote it back out again
and that sold the problem, but I was amazed that it was possible to do it so nicely, but yeah,
lots of de-referencing, but I've been in a similar program, so I wasn't too faced by that,
but yeah, yeah, it's I do understand if anybody goes to Pearl and goes, what?
And as far as data bases go, I think one of the other nice thing about Pearl is the C-Pan,
the Comprehensive Pearl Arc I've never worked with, sort of like the granddaddy of all like,
you know, node-like or apt-like kind of package repositories, and it there is just something
for everything, whether it's easier than Python's module, I mean you can find what you need to
get done is basically what happens, now there may be 20 ways, 20 different modules and you got
to find a good one, but yeah, so far like it was just the Pearl DVI and DVD modules and it just worked. Yeah,
it's quite a nice nice interface, so my son's currently using an ORM in Python's part of his job,
and he's finally he hates the ORM because he, he learn databases from the ground up and he
finds the ORM removes his view a bit more and same with Pearl there, so there are ORMs for, for
for databases as well, but whether you want to use them, I don't know, I certainly don't.
Okay, should we go from Pearl to basic? Following day was a hookah with, we continue our
technological archaeology to explore the old warhouse dust this time, it's in basic. Somebody want
to read B'sos? Come on. I think it's probably my turn, I don't think I've said much lately,
our B'sos says, basic lives on. I think it's a real pity that basic is not taking seriously
by more developers. I agree that in its early days it was well basic, but it evolved into a very
powerful development platform in the guides of visual basic, productivity was far higher than
with visual C++, and for what few low level functions it couldn't support, it could always create
a DLL using CLC++ and pull it in from a visual basic. In Linux we still have gambas, which is
easily the fastest way to create a Linux GUI application, it's very similar to visual basic,
and its flavour of basic takes the language to a level beyond even BB. For projects where I
complete freedom of choice, I use nothing else. It runs fast and Python and for GUI app it is
fast simpler and more productive. Never heard of us, definitely a shorter, if not a series.
I've tinkered with it, but I don't know. Well, a collaborative series, wow!
I think I think bees would be the lead. That would take you like, partnership.
And by some guy on the internet, visual basics 6.0 for the win. How many of you used Yahoo
Messenger during the win 98 era? I remember these software handguns called Booters. They were
created using BB and everyone had one. It was a wild west on the internet and lots of
feelings were heard following by the BSOD Blue Screen of Death. Good times. No idea what those were.
Booters. Yeah, that one I hadn't heard of either. No. Also a show. Okay.
Yep. How am radio testing? Congratulations, Archer 72 or did I spoil it? I think I spoiled it.
Do I have to go back in there? Archer 72? Well done. I'm radio licensed,
not that hard. Put in some time and effort. Yeah, well done. Absolutely. Well done.
Yep. I'm more, more and more toying with the idea of going ahead and doing that once I get done
the tag about the radio website. Super. Yes, I was, well, I wasn't going to say that. I was going to say
do both. And Archer says 72 says that the left out the show notes came. Like the fire was the
tool I mentioned that the show also known as K Mag. So the next day we had part one of the new
years Eve show 2021 2022. Who the mobile server is provided by Delwin,
their site by Josh, stream and eat the pad by Honky and the show notes by my all-time hero,
HP Lovecraft, what an excellent, excellent job they have done, making links to every single thing
that was mentioned in it. Really? Absolutely. The dedication there is amazing. I don't think
yeah, only you and I Dave will truly appreciate the amount of effort that that has taken.
Are any of the people who've gone around and helped us with fixing the tags and stuff
that you have to, you can't just listen, you have to listen and then stop and they go,
what was that? We were in 14 times because of the accent and then
find the page, find the links, unbelievable, the amount of work. It easily took twice or three times
the length of the shows and these shows were 24 hours. So this was a job and a half
well done. Yes, the show notes are amazing. I'm really impressed. I was amazed. I was
prattling on about having a fiber in sort of my house and I had mentioned the company and
there's a link to the company. Yes, yes. There's also a great bunch of digital equipment
things in the let's see. Did you quit my corporation with the MS deck out for blah, blah, blah.
Really? You can even, I know the HBR news show is quite a handful to absorb
of a day, but the show notes really help. You can always, there for that bit or I was talking
there or that's somebody else or that has to be whoever came along, so yeah, very good.
Yeah, brilliant. I, yeah. HBR Lovecraft is a frequency, the Linux Lovecast
podcast and a Macedon channel. So yeah, I went over there because I do visit the
location and sent him congratulations for the work done there. So yeah, super interesting. While the next
day, how I got into tech as promised was stash rf of a fox trot and from deletion commander calm
in windows to tinkering circuit python and there's a thing that I'd like more shows on actually
a circuit python because I've learnt to know, wow, is it easier to use than Arduino or, you know,
the version of C that's in Arduino or what competing with micro python I think is. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. What is the MS? Is that the A to free version of the circuit python? I don't sure.
I've already got into it. Not sure, Dave, because nobody submissive the show about it. This is
absolutely, I'm just reinforcing what you're saying there. I get all my tech info from HBR. Who's
turn is that to do a wrong, you could do D&T's command. Okay, by D&T, welcome. Great show,
the command.com story with with shoutout to a hookah was well received looking forward to more.
So the next day we had some guy in the internet with secret has conversations. I had to
chuckle at this on how to properly create a ten-foil ass. Absolutely awesome. But brings up
lots of interesting discussions about monitoring and knowing where you are. And I was thinking
actually, I was listening to this on the way from the bus in to work. And every time I've been
passing there, this show has popped into my head. And I was thinking, well, actually, even if I
didn't have a form, it would be fairly obvious to identify where I was of a day, because if I'm not at home,
then I'm on this train following this line into this station, taking that bus, going to this place,
sitting there and going back, you know, people are a creatures of habit. So all the observation
isn't really necessary if you did the legwork. It's right, it was done before everybody had
the training devices in their pockets, but yeah, yeah. But it's so, so, so much easier.
It's why I always turn off the location thing, step on them, you know, using the Google map or something.
Yeah, but even that's, you know, they can tell us where the tower is now, because
your average tower is divided into three different sections. So, yeah, they can tell the direction
from that tower, from that tower, and that tower, and they get you a general area. So, if you want
to know where you are, the will, but... Yeah, the tinfoil hat was for your phone, man.
The tinfoil hat was for your head, Dave. One of Spoon says, serious talking,
good to hear somebody reminding others that some tinfoil may go a long way,
when folded correctly. Scary, biscuits aside, I do occasionally hold the sheet of animilium
foil between myself and the rescued microwave oven. The gas insulation, thanks.
The insulation, the insulation will show up better in the dark, by which means
and holes might be revealed. That actually, if that was anybody else, right?
Anybody else in the network, with the exception of maybe, let me see,
I'm now going to have to find one second.
Great, it's time to try to conquer its silence dash, shall we?
Cyclop, one second. Yes, cyclop, with the exception of cyclop, I wouldn't think that there
were been serious about taking microwave ovens part, but one of Spoons are possibly
making a traffic would be on the list of people who might try that,
shows appreciated, as ever. It's pretty scary, thanks microwave ovens.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Monochromic is in the channel. No monochromic, we do not edit. We
hate editing. We do do truncates also. So, what else?
Or, secret hack conversations. Next show was, I talk about all the reasons I love
Unix and this of course has to be been R.C. And this was a good run-down, actually. I like
the idea that, um, literally, you can do a TTY dump to a file. I was wondering what
it was doing the show notes was that, you know, pre-block correct or not. And then it
made sense. And you have to listen to the show, to find out what I'm on about.
Brilliant show notes, by the way. Yes, I think I must have tuned out for some of
it. I'll go and read the notes, but yeah, what I heard was it was amazing, really impressive.
He's into making fairly chunky shows, I think, this one was nearly an hour. So, but so it was
great to hear his enthusiasm and depth of knowledge too. Sure. I commented on this,
one thing that he did mention was, file extensions are valid. Something upstairs.
One more. Okay. Yeah, kids keep the ball into the background. Yeah, I commented, file extensions are
valid. Relying on them is not a good idea, but using them is fine. It also fits right into
other conventions such as the location of the local and system binary files. Relying on the
system to determine the file type is slow, and I do a time LS, of a lot of file directory.
That's only took 0.06 seconds, and then doing the same thing for a file, the file command to identify
what type of file that is, that took two minutes. So, for the more, they help in giving you a
rough idea what to expect. This is useful when searching, and you're thinking some Python file,
which I downloaded yesterday, would limit modified, so you could do your search limits, it's to
modify time and the PY extension. So, don't draw the baby out with the back water.
I guess I'll take the next one. I hyper-nike, bind mount, high-binarity, actually bind mounts are
very useful for change-ruits, easy. You can have the same dev directory as your actual OS.
By the way, it would be interesting to hear and open the podcast from you. Yes, thank you,
hyper-nike. Good little. So, yeah, some gun internet says I like file extensions. What can
you do? Well, I think that's a good point. It's a good point. I was pondering this after
I remember hearing this story, reading some of your back paddling. Well, to crap, I've got from
you over the years of file extensions. What? It's very useful in the context of VIM. Though I
must admit that all of my postscripts do not end in.pl, because I use the the mode line function
that VIM offers, where you stick a comment at the front or the back of the file that says,
use such and such a syntax and, oh, and by the way, set the tab stops to blah, blah, blah, blah,
which is amazing, an useful thing. The other thing that it will do is it'll look for the hash bang
the start, which indicates which interpreter to run it through. So, but I don't want all of my
chairs, we call chair.ca. Yeah, what do you call me? You are called Dave Morris, you are called Dave.
Oh, true, true. Yeah, yeah, but an extension is not a surname, is it? It's just, it's a, it's like having
a label on your head said, I'm human, I'm not an android. No, no, no, it is, it is, it's a name space.
It puts it into the name space of what? Now, again, what he's, I get what he's saying,
that we shouldn't be relying on that totally, but you know, I can understand that you are Dave Morris,
but you might also be related to Dave Morris's or the Morris's with, you know, SIS or something.
Like, you should be a guideline as opposed to, yeah, you're not related to Morris's. We're here.
I've done my genealogy, I'm not, no, no, no. We lost, we gained the S in about 17, something or
other, I don't know, I think first census of the census take it didn't spell our name right
and it seemed to stick. Excellent. That's a challenge. Sure, you wanted to know that, didn't you?
I did, I do actually, I do want to do, I'm fascinated by this stuff.
I do. Oh, there's a comment. Shall I? Yeah. Yes, I just did one, so it's, it's a year or
a run for the next one. Well, one of small, why would pin you the big books?
By one of Spoon's free revision, thanks for this episode, remind me, reminded me of
so many things, 12 years since I studied this stuff for a lot of weeks relating to Salaris. During
those studies, I repeatedly wondered, so what? The football is connected to the leg bone.
Nevertheless, sometimes it pays to recognize ones and available environment.
He stimulated my brain through a good chunk of dull work. I would listen to this one again one
day. That is high praise indeed. Excellent. The next day, one weird trick. This is looking
prion, and Brian is a systemum. I'll tell you what it is. He talks about getting into advanced
or cybersecurity and how keyboards could trick malware. This was an interesting, they've done a
few fires, I chat to things themselves, and there are words of wisdom. I really want to
give them to certain people that I know, and the trick is that if you put a rushing
keyboard on your laptop, somewhere where we'll go, look at it and go, well, I don't want to mess
with that laptop, so I'm not going to install my malware, so that's pretty good. Yes, yes,
who did that? That's a good one. Oh, quite off. I comment on one of the things that they mentioned
that they're about enthusiasm and willingness to learn. As someone who's interviewed people
for jolt, it's amazing the hoops you'll go through with HR to hire somebody with enthusiasm and
willingness to learn. The next one, working prion, says red gems indeed. I was always lucky enough
to be on really good terms with HR. I'm one of the firm belief that you should know the people
in HR and legal on a first name basis. They can say, smelly face. Yes, yes. You should know the
one of the first name basis before they come. You should be from you going to them, not the other way around.
Just definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I get the message. And here we have again the next
new year show. And let me see, maglise, dialects must for genius, scroll down all the
bit random, nuclear power in the US, mumble, push to talk tips, burn notices, who vices, GTA vices,
city, scrolling down, ITIL certification, scrolling down, and gore zilla with Clint Eastwood. You just
have to, that's the new year show for you. It's awesome. It's probably time to start recording
promels and send them out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So monochromic, do you want to speak?
Speak now or forever, hold your piece. We say his name three times, he will appear. Monochromic,
monochromic. Monochromic! This is where you roll and you can do that. Do, do, do, do, do.
Sorry about that. Oh, what? Maybe he's having hard times. No, nobody can hear you.
Nobody can hear you. Let me do it. No, nobody can hear you. Okay, this was a good show.
John, I don't know where to get all these people, actually. John Hawley from kernel.org
thing. And this was a good background to, yeah, basically how kernel.org worked the four
gist wasn't that, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So you should all definitely have a
solution to that one. Yeah, it was definitely an interesting show. And I do always like, like,
the guests they have and their technical stuff. It's always, always really interesting.
Yeah, I'm working for VM, where now. It's just interesting as a pretty cool. Okay, following
day, we had hyper Nike, hyper Nike we're saying, or could be high, early, okay, higher Nike, higher, higher,
higher, higher, higher, higher. My first podcast, my journey into the computer world, how I was
introduced to computers, then Xbox, Xbox programming, cybersecurity, and more. And plus no, no comments.
No, it was a fascinating show. And like, just sort of the way it sort of started building on
each other and that sort of out-side influence. Yeah, the learning scratch, and then go into the
Canada and we have some excellent stuff. I would actually, if you could post the link to the show
that you, or the series there, because I wouldn't mind learning a little bit of JavaScript. It's always
been something on my list, but I missed. I'm not trying to want myself to try, there's a guy on
YouTube I've been following, because my son was trying to learn JavaScript for various things for
work. So I said, oh, I'll also follow you along, but he needs zoomed on ahead, so, but still,
there's some good stuff. Yeah, it certainly appreciate a point of view. Yeah, and then you can get
a one. Anybody who can do an introductory show on JavaScript, and that's not looking for
how to rewrite artificial intelligence, but, you know, just the basic introduction, how you get
started, how you can test, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We could write a static site generator,
you could. Yeah, could. I want to say, don't run JavaScript. That might be a problem. I'm not sure.
Oh, changing plans travel. You got to be aware of that. This was where, oh, good, planned that
there early thing during COVID times and how they got around that. I love this series, and you
wonder why this is of interest to hackers is because it actually, yeah, he's applying this to travel,
but it goes with a lot of things. You've got to be ready for a change of plan, you know, go with
the floor today, but in a controlled fashion. Yeah, yeah, the tools that are available for helping out
with this are sound really impressive. I'm taking into our whole new level of facilities and
flexibility, I guess. Yeah, and the good old spreadsheet. As ever, Oka has got
detailed show notes on his own, which are excellent. Yes, I'm going to send my parents
links to this. They have a camper and they've done some traveling, mostly out west to see my sister
with it, but I'm sure that some of this planning would help them out, too. Yeah, I'm just
even if it all doesn't apply to you. I mean, the things that you need to take into account,
you know, practical things, the height of your vehicle, how you could do it in one day, but do you
want to, even that applies to, I've been taking, maybe do in the train trip around Europe,
you know, just go over to Berlin for chips. That sort of thing, chips being french fries,
yeah, and take the night train and blah blah blah. It does make good, just general travel plans
that you can. Okay, the next day, we had response to episode 3655 BST for Linux users by Claudio
Maranda and links to his WordPress blog on it and geeky experiences,
episodes. And just it's my, I'll do the comment. Alan 86 says feedback. Yeah, open BST is great.
Great episode. I have not heard before about evil laptops. It would be nice to hear more about them.
A bit of Dave Alan 64 is an alias, and you're just plugging them for more shows.
No, no, no, no, admit. Speak to a small acromic. Speak to us.
I'm kidding me now. Yes, sorry about the, sorry about the, sorry about the lay,
I have to jump pretty soon. So just by two cents on the, on all I show, that was actually
done heard on current little org. And this was our third but last show on something called
Hackapublic Radio. We're like to take the opportunity to thank Hackapublic Radio for the last
two and a half years. It has been a great experience. What, sorry. And full disclosure, of course,
I'm one of the in-laws. Yes, if you read the mailing list, you probably know who I am.
Martin and myself constitute a podcast. Sorry. Yeah, sorry, a podcast. Yes, called Linux in
hours. What left a bit of sweet, after taste in our mouths, basically, were the,
were some of the comments on the mailing list about Linux in loss and HPR in general.
So come October and nothing much will change. We are moving to Ark of the Rock. The
RSS feed isn't the process of being adapted. Nothing much will change if you follow our RSS feed
and can us already kindly agree. I hope that still the case can. Yeah, that there's a direct
in play, a redirect in place to our RSS feed. If you have subscribe to the HPR one. So nothing
much you have to change. Our RSS feed, of course, will always be up to date. And simply,
we are moving then to, to Ark of the Rock. Yeah, and I just like to, sorry. I'd like to say
there about the, the feedback that I think a lot of people are for stress, that's at the situation.
And I believe this is entirely down to me that I just managed a situation very well.
And a lot of HPR listeners are first seem to be frustrated at the fact that Linux in
loss were on HPR as a podcast within HPR. And, but that, that was, you were on the understanding
that we were podcast hosting platform and that all makes a lot more sense. And I'm really sorry
the way I went down. I will be going through the comments again, but for those people making
those comments, I can understand your frustration, but I don't think the involves have done anything
wrong in this situation. And I hope you can continue to publish shows. And we will, of course,
the publicizing your feed and we will be, of course, if you're willing to via the free
culture podcasts or excite, promoting your show, if you give us a register, we'll have the
most of the boots and that sort of thing. So I would like to salvage some bit of,
it could have gotten better if the transition is basically what I'm saying. I'm sorry
about the way it went down. It wasn't great.
No, and Ken, no worries. And I, and don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to pin any, any, any, any,
what I'm not before any fault on you. No, not at all. We would just start impressed by some of
the feedback with community, because this is exactly what leaves open source and the public
you with a bit of off the page. Similar to the likes of the current mailing list,
Guido or a fundraising stepping down on the rest of it. I'm not comparing that, but it's still
not a great experience. What happened in the within the last work two or three weeks?
Something like that. And Ken, as I said, my mail, the second 10 beers on the loss,
should we meet again. And again, and again, I would like to thank Hacker Public Radio
being a podcast or podcast hosting platform. Frankly, and I hope I can say that on the show.
I don't give a shit. Yeah, that's it. Again, thank you, but again, thank you for your hospitality
for the last two and a half years. And thank you for your support. No problem. And again,
you'll see in the comments that if you, if you look at it from the point of view of the HBR,
people do appreciate your shows. And I'm sure that the majority of HBR subscribers will go over
and also subscribe to your feed. So yeah, there's lots of lessons that we can learn from this.
And the doors always open to you guys. You know, if you have shows that don't fit in with the
Linux and those stuff. If I come up here on HBR and don't be strangers, we will,
yeah, we will try to put this learn from our mistakes and try to put this behind us. If we can.
Much, much appreciated. And as you kindly, I'm suggest it,
through feed to put us on the, on the, what is it, free podcast? Yeah,
if you click on podcast.org, Norris, yes, because, as it yet, or the way that he has volunteered to take over that. So,
hopefully, we're just appreciate it. And then when I saw it, great. Are you going to fasten them?
Yeah, that's the attention. Yeah. If you see the call for stands, we might try doing that
standing again. And then obviously, get some stickers and stuff when we can put it into the HBR boots,
both here in the US and the UK. So that you stickers and stuff. Yeah, let me talk to marketing
if Martin has a fast that department yet. Again. And this has, we'll, we'll know that,
but what that means, anyway, guys, I got a run. Thank you very much for the, for the last two
now of years and little forward to meeting you soon. All right, you see it faster. Please,
I have to buy you that sticker. That's the good thing. Look, I look forward to take care. Bye. Bye.
So we did a back to response to BSEUs or Linux. And the next show was the new year's show,
part three. And you can see lots of stuff about the Netherlands coming in. So obviously, my
song is partaking in that one. And you do to yes, yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Sorry for that.
It, it, I've heard it and it was, it's good. I really enjoyed it. They're, they're interesting
to listen to. I, I did enjoy hearing all about the delights of the Netherlands in so
So, from a little bit, yes, he does enjoy the show, but sometimes he gets a little bit
excited and forgets to stop talking and forgets to meet other people like myself, but it's
a lesson that we often learn and I'm afraid.
Well, it can happen to all of us, I think, but yeah, there was some good dialogue going on
there wasn't just a one-sided dialogue, there was some interesting chats with between your children
and the American audience and a few other services, so we'd just go on and click here,
pop-ton in our case, and you know, I thought it sounded to me like the sort of discussion
that you'd hear, you know, sound about next people that would be fascinating to listen to and
to join in, perhaps. Okay, and if you're going to be a little long-winded, that is the show to
be a little long-winded, the pop-song. Very true. Yeah, chances are just a little for you.
Yeah, the following day we had recording for HBR, this is D&T, podcasting tips about how he recorded
and hit an iPhone 7, but Apple earbuds, a Zoom H1, a soundhizer, and the Pearl 2,
and Pixel 3 with a Dolby app. And it was also some nice tips here about compressors and stuff
and EQ and all the rest of it. Yep, another show I need to listen to over again, just to
the assure, I'm absorbing as many hints as possible. Yeah, I was just thinking the same
cause I heard this morning before this recording, so it was a bit late, but yeah,
it had some really helpful hints and experiences talked about that, excellent.
And good all Mr Gadgets. I hope to hear from him again. I've seen the odd
tweet from him occasionally. Yeah, yeah, you still are still around, but
I'm not sure there's a story about MasterDone or whether it was Twitter, but
all of you, if you see him, can you see the CLO and copy myself and the HBR account,
so we can subscribe. Yeah, yeah, I'm better at mine. Yeah, good guy. I did
MasterDone once a long time ago. It's been a while since he's been been on and just to say
really impressed with this show, you know, how sometimes it's good to send a message to people
just to congratulate them. He was really, really friendly and nice guy to come back with.
Good. Okay, there were a few comments on previous shows, which is back at the episode
3676 page. And on my own show about infinity is just a big number of nother proofs.
I include the SMBC comic, where there's somebody having a dialogue with the creator asking
does nothing exist, and then it goes on to say infinity. Seriously, let's go now, don't there.
I've never seen that, but that might be laugh. Yeah, it's good. He's done a lot of the
few since that. So, do you want to do there, it also? The comment from Aaron on show 3629 from
the, let's say when I was what an excellent interview he says, he or she said, I'm big fan of
Mozilla and Fire Force, it was fascinating to hear what Eric had to say. I forgot in the
guy's name, but I remember that one being particularly, particularly good. Yeah, see, there are
positive comments on indoor shows. I think a lot of people have said that they say you want a good,
but sometimes they ramble a bit too much on the other ones, but the interview ones, they're really,
really on the ball. Sorry, yeah, I want you to go. Should I take this one? Please,
okay, comment by Sean on episode 3643, my computing history, and the software I use by Ben R.C.
Let's see, Sean says key bindings, you can remap your control and alt keys using Udev with HWDB,
EG, interchange in control, and caps keys, HWDBs, we key dot archlinics.org, forward slash title, forward slash map,
underscore scan codes, underscore to underscore key codes, pound example for custom HWDB, and you can use control
plus the left square friend to send the mistake character, or square bracket. Yes, once you've
done this a few times, you'll be going linked in the shadows. Yes, and by the way, but the way we see the
comments here, we don't see these as proper URLs, whereas on the actual comment, it's the URLs
made that active. Yeah, a response by 40 to my show, a response to tomorrow's show. I do precisely
like a long time worker, so you clearly can't count the downloads as listener listeners. My podcast
here is downloading all HGR shows, and I'm deciding afterwards if I want to listen, surprise
in the case of the Linux in those I've deleted without listening as I see it's one of those.
Can't quite say why, but after two of their shows I've had enough, it's just not my taste.
I know I strongly suspect, since people here by voice, there's a massive deletico,
but that's okay. My inferiority complex is better than yours.
No, actually, that's not the joke. Your inferiority complex is better than mine. Yes, that's the joke.
That makes more sense. Okay, what now, Dave? Do we tackle these, Dave and Roan? Roan?
Are you up for this thread, because it's a shitstorm, basically?
Let's do it. Unless it's long enough to make another show out of it.
Yeah, it's a lot. There is a lot. I know, essentially says Ken is more on.
Well, it was just, it was a situation that got out of a little out of your hands.
Okay, let's do the accessibility thing. My great. I just spotted a layering accessibility issue on
HBR site. I just listened to community news published today and heard a mention about
show from Kafka, which I need to know about right now for work. So I went to the site and the
tags page. Running down the list of tags begins with the letter K of Han Kafka,
call on space 3639. That's fine. But only the 3639 bases included the link. So when I
hit the K button to navigate the link in VDA, a window screen reader, all I get is number after
number after number. I believe all the major screen readers include a key to jump from link to link.
No idea which is the Kafka show. So the link needs to be changed to include the tag in the
anchor. I have mentioned this before, an anchor should include the full text that is right to link.
That's just the word here. As in, click here about an invisible dress with six legs.
I would want the whole thing in the link so that I can find the link about invisible dress with six
legs. Not just here, here, here, here, here. I don't know how I missed that when it was published.
But I am one of those people who screw up the stats because I delete most of the shows based
of the titles. After making sure it's not one of my most listened of hosts.
The next one is that one of these. Okay, fair enough. Dave, do you want to do Dave's response?
That sounds good. Yes. Yes. Hi, Mike. I say I must apologize for this problem.
Page is something I designed to construct on myself. For new readers we're talking about
and give a link to the tags.php page. I wanted the page to be like an index and a book with
the key word tag on the left, followed by a list of the page show numbers. As I designed this,
it seemed that each link was best presented as a number. I didn't know that the screen readers
would cook badly with this. I'm wondering if there's a way of including text that would help
the screen reader while leaving the list of show numbers as it is. I was unavailable this morning
blah blah blah. I saw the warnings that many screen readers will not use the attribute. Oh, sorry,
I skipped over a bit. I've just been doing just going back to that previous paragraph. I've been
trying to do what some accessibility advice I found suggests. Namely giving each link each link to a
show a text attribute in experiment one. I added the show title there. I saw the warnings that many
screen readers will not use this attribute. I also wonder if this will have the effect of making
the page excessively complex for screen readers that do use it. Using this text has the advantage
for sighted users that hovering over the link shows what the episode's about. I found many references
to accessible rich internet applications, area, area in my research and I see what I could and I see
that I could add these types of attributes. What do you think? I can take this, follow Dave,
apologies for top posting. This is from Mike Ray, response. If you get your hands on the bootstrap
three styles, CSS, search for SR-Dash only. I suggest you might want to create a bogus tag
alley, A, or is it A111? With a link to a bogus show and when you have done that let me know.
Although of course the styling is probably done in a loop so any style apply will be applied to all.
And I guess what you mean by index is that you want any tag to appear on the page only once,
but then followed by a column to the right with the show numbers. I'm sorry to learn about
this, but running down a list is very, very, very annoying when meaningful entry is not included
in the link. In case of HBR tags page, I just get a number after number and on a lot of pages as I
suggest before is only ever the word here that is linked. Jumping either forwards or backwards
through the links with K or Shift K, I have no idea when I've landed on a link I want.
Perhaps we can do some trials and give me the night each time you made an update.
PHP, yeah, the answer to is where it's at the all the pearl happening dudes are there, like.
And then I reply, I think I understand the problem. You have the search text and then the
episode numbers where that keywords appear. For example Kafka 3639 new line, Calilinix 1457. So when
you search for Kafka, you land on 3639 which is what you hear is fine because that's the show about
Kafka. But you cannot see if there are two more shows for Kafka because when you tab,
you tab to the next link which is 1457 which is not about Kafka but then fact about
Calilinix. If somebody else records a show about Kafka, then you will have Kafka,
colon 3639 comma space 999, new line, Calilinix, colon 1547. So when you search for Kafka,
it will then go 3639, then 999, then 1457. So there's no indication to the show
which link is about Kafka. Is that the problem? If so, then the solution would be to have the tag
included in the first link so the first hyperlink would say, basically Kafka, colon 3639.
And then the second one would be 999. And then for as many shows as they are. When you jump
to the next tag you would hear Calilinix 1457 and then any other show numbers that follow.
Is that a solution? Or would you just have each tag as a headline? And then each show having
its online with a complete line of text to which Mike responded. So yeah, so it's just get my
head around like I didn't fully appreciate what was being said in that email. Anyway, Mike replies,
let me see if I can explain this in simple terms with the list. Imagine this list on a website
and I'm not going to put HTML here since a emails with HTML in our crime against humanity and b.
It might offset the email clients' books have set for HTML and not plain text. So his list is
click here to go to the foot of our stairs, click here to eat vanilla ice cream, click here to get
rid of all the right wing governments forever, click here to restore human rights across mainland
Europe, click here if you think each beat is the best teacher's engine ever. There are five entries
in that list. Each sentence only had the word here included in the anchor. Then started from the
top and using the navigation key screen reader, the which the screen reader provides a jump
through the links. I would here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here. It's about as useful as a
chocolate teapots since I would not know what each of those here things were. I'm aware that you're
not using a screen reader yourself. This has had to understand if you are not using a screener.
And just using a screen reader to test this stuff is hard since getting to the point where you
are relaxed and familiar with the screen reader takes time. I would say if I can work out a way to
record the text from my screen reader while I key down through a list of links or of links of
tags on HBR. Presumably the ESP tag list must be longer than more in peace. It's right of course.
He replied, or do you want to do his reply? Yeah, he wanted to read further down your email
than I did before, can this solution would work? If the tag subject will include in the first
anchor in a list of tags for that subject. So just to break away from that for a second, you are
suggesting that the actual word that is the indexed item, which is also an anchor. You can jump
to it if you know, you can put that in the URL and jump to it. Then if that were to signal that
it is an entry for that particular word, then no, no, it's not quite, no, I find something
to just cover trying to explain this to myself. So we got tags beginning with picking number V, right?
So we jump to the video section. So the video there's a tag called video and it's got a whole
goal of numbers behind us. And all that Mike is going to hear is 26, 29, 41, 64, blah, blah, blah,
right through. But what I'm suggesting is from the first link, we start the AHRF,
called on HPR episode on the first link is the episode 26. So could well be just
covering it. It's because as Mike was saying, it's the, it's, there's some text associated with
the AHRF hyperlink or the anchor itself that's getting read out. Not the piece of text that's
there for a search and users. No, no, it's just the police sort of text for psychosis users.
That's what's getting read out. That's the problem. It's, it's being read out because because it's
so link. Yeah. So if you, if you press top on the page, what's happening? Did I, did you hear
anything? I said, I was alone now. Oh, hi. I heard you were talking about, um, video,
okay, because during do that, I was pushing push to talk. Okay, I forgot to press push to talk.
Okay, if you go to the tab tag stop PHP page, right, and you click on any of the links,
H, for example. What I'm suggesting is, and if you go or highlight tags beginning with H,
I'm highlighting that section, and I'm highlighting the first two lines, hope, 1041, and hack
1598. And I'm doing view source. That was about idea. Depends on your browser, probably.
I'm doing view selection source, which might be a bit easier. So, okay, you know what?
Really just a lot easier is if I, if I do this on H, the ML page, it will make a lot more sense.
So, you know when you got H, ML link, it's a H, R, F, colon, hackers public radio for such
apps, question mark ID equals 1596. And then you have the semicolon less than greater than sign,
and then the number. So, what we're saying for the first one, we include the word hack in the first
one. And then you will hear hack 1598, tab, then you'll hear 1858, tab, he will hear 2126, tab,
you'll see 3382. And if you actually do this on the page and you press tab, you'll see a
jumping from link to link. And all you have to do is, anything where the blue square is over.
That's all they're going to hear. Yeah, because you've left it on the link. Yes, okay. So, if I include
the text that's from the A space ID hope, or you know, the strong column hope, strong, as part of
the first link, then you know, you tap down to the first link and it gives the name of the tag,
then the first show. And then the subsequent ones are going to be related to whatever that was.
And then once you go to a new tag, it'll say new tag, episode 1, 2, 3, 4, tab, 4, 5, 6, 7,
which you kind of know in your brain is related to the previous tag. And then you press tab,
and it goes through, episode 1, tab, bar, episode 2. Yeah, get the idea. Yeah, that makes sense
that that works for Mike. Yeah, I am, I'm pre-empting what being discussed later on in the thread,
but I had actually, I was asking about using this area label thingy, which my researchers had shown
a lot of screen readers would handle, would deal with it. And in order to test it, I fired up a version
of Hawker, and with some sort of struggling managed to get it onto this tag page. And I found that
if I, if I went to a particular link, it would say what was in the area label. So at the moment,
I moved it much further with this because so Mike's busy, I think I've not heard back from him,
I've got the area label says tag hack, Colon, which is stupid because it will say Colon,
but show, and then it says show 1, 5, 9, 6. So that was what I thought would be useful,
but of course it depends on whether the, I know Hawker does it, but I'm not sure whether where
there are other screen readers would. Yeah. Yeah, me. Yeah, you know, but I'm thinking if we do
the way I'm suggesting that we include the tag in the first, then you, you know, if you call that
thing that sort of index term, that the tag word itself or tag phrase itself, that should also
have a label on it of some sort that causes the screen reader to, to speak it. Yeah. Yeah.
Bob Youngman says, you know, this entire thread will make a great fit to be our episode
from Bob, who's five or six or five other people are opening it. I'm willing to
think read this email thread into a microphone and make an episode out of us. I'm, but I'm
visually dependent, so while I think I understand the problem and the solution, I'm no ally
ally expert. Well, don't clear how he's supposed to say that. I know, I know,
took me while I was working at what it was actually referring to, but an accessibility expert.
Yeah, yeah, but yeah, anyway, I don't. It doesn't make sense to somebody else, but not me.
But yeah, and then I said, I call Bob reading accessibility problem thread and redirecting into my
Omni-assure that text file to which you replied to. So I said, hi Mike, sorry to have
taken several days to reply. He liked going in the way a little more. I've been fairly brutal with
moving previous stuff in the email thread too, but I hope I can address them nevertheless.
This thread was getting really, really tangled. I take your point about the multiple healings,
but I haven't quite realized how unpleasant my list of show numbers of each tag was to a screen reader
user. I did battle with Orker for an hour or two and began to get the idea. So since Wednesday,
this has dated, certainly the 6th of August. I managed to regenerate the tags page with the
headings you suggested. It suggested there should be a header per lump of alphabetic piece of the
page, which is there now, as you see. With the headings you suggested in the message with the
title more about tag accessibility. I also added area label attributes to the A tags. At the moment,
these can name stuff like tag Kafka Colon show 3639. I found that Orker would read these, but I've
no idea if other screen readers would. I also seriously doubt that current content is useful.
I think I was referring to the Colon because it would be so annoying. However, it might be a
thing to consider. The other disadvantages of this is that Orker says the show number twice
once the area label and again the hyperlink itself. So maybe just having the tag in this label would
be enough. I will generate a new page with a different name which contains links on separate lines
with the show number and title perhaps the associated tag. This will be very long and sometimes
we'll have many entries. I'll see the tag Linux has 264 entries for example, worth a try though.
I'll look at your alternative suggestions as well. Can suggestions also worth testing out?
Ron, do you want to do Carl's response? Sure. Carl, the him and response.
What if the tag name itself was a link to a page with just the shows related to that tag?
That's a pretty common pattern I've seen around the web and it would make more sense to have
the show titles on such a page. My hunch is that that only improves linear navigation,
those links are either the only links on that on the page or at least group together at the start
of the page before the show links like a table of contents, just brainstorming and there.
I was thinking about that for the stuff such in the research. Would you hear?
It's going to generate a lot of pages. There's like 600 tags, so it's 600 pages potentially.
Yeah, but once the generous of the generous is...
Sure, sure. Well, except that you have to update, which is actually something
I've been thinking about is an update option for that site generator so that only the pages
need to be regenerated. Yeah, that's a good optimization, but if you, even if you generate
all the pages all the time, yeah, so it's expensive, but when you put them on to a disk and we
are sink from that disk to the main website, then it's only going to pick up changes that we can
set or sink only to look as ones where the file size has changed or something equivalent.
True. Yeah, I didn't actually do that. I haven't done the second page yet, because I got
bogged down with other things, but that will be something I will get to in the next week or two.
Yeah, maybe if we, the tags page is a bit big. If we do a page with various different options,
various different options pages, you'll have to have a few tags and then
fuss the best from those, because I'd also like to stick to relatively basic HTML rather than using
explicit things that only screen readers can use, and if it gets supports as dropped or whatever,
I'd like it to be the same code for everybody, but working for screen readers, obviously.
There was a comment that I think Mike mentioned a CSS enhancement that would help.
Yeah, which I have to say is that I need to, and I need to find out more about that.
So that's also something that if I were to put together some experimental pages
to do the various things that I suggested, the thing that Mike suggested and Karl suggested
so far, then it may be maybe. And as you say, maybe construct some such it just grabs the first few
tags from the list or something like that. Yeah, one with a lot of tags, one with only one,
one with more, and then the sample would also be useful if people listening to this,
those of those of who you who have survived. At one using accessibility tools,
if you could ping us on the social medias or on the email list or a comment to this show,
if you want to join along in this, the more the mirror would be, will be a good idea, I think here.
And I can help out, well, with maybe generating that CSS version, Dave, with the satics
that exciting generator. Yeah, yeah, if we do, can collaborate on that one. Yeah, because of
what we're good to get, because if we get a fixed for this, we can get a fixed for all the other
all the other issues related to the site itself might be an idea to take the HPRCSS as
it is now. And see, can we improve that as well? So that's by default, all HPRP just benefit from
whatever we do on this. Well, and to that point, when I had read this while I was doing the templates,
I have gone through and I think it, I've changed most of the links for the satics site
generator to not just say here, but to try to give them context now. Cool. Yes.
Excellent. Okay. Okay, Dave, your last comment was? I did a reply to Carl, so I'll read that out. Yeah,
I'm the mailing list. Interesting thought, I said, to Carl, I present the tag page and questions
an offshoot of the project. Now, complete it to add tags and summary swallows shows. I separated
the tag list, which I referred to as the index from the main page about what we still needed
done, because I thought it would be a useful thing. So the workflow was, add new tags and
summary to the database refresh the two pages and I normally do this as updates came in.
Now, when everyone new shows are added to make sure their tags are listed,
I generate the pages locally on my desktop PC and upload them, so the tag page is static,
and updates it when there's a change. There are currently five thousand eight hundred
thirty seven tags in the system, so that would mean a number of tags specific pages, I guess.
Yes, everyone. But yes. And Mike replies more about tag accessibility.
I just went to the tags page. Again, going down the page shows all the tags for each starting letter.
There's nothing but a go to index link between each. For example, between K and the L page,
another screen reader option is to jump from heading to heading, so we'd be better if those
heading something like being in a mode K. You switched to using heading, shouldn't you?
Yeah, I did that already. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you probably just, you could use if the
area thing is working, you could just put tags beginning with and the area, and then it would say,
it should, I'm guessing, say tags beginning with and then K. I think it's what he's saying,
to get a contact. Yeah. Yeah. Tags beginning before it's blocked,
on the tags, then the screen reader user could jump to the, from heading to heading until
the final letter to that mode. Okay, that makes sense. And then hitting K to jump from link to link
is annoying when you go through a list of letters in the author's plus some more,
as a long list. So heading after Z would probably be a landmark to jump to in the absence of the
usual skip to link, which is put in the accessibility webpage and all about that. Most web pages
written by accessibility aware authors and code lakes and landmarks that are invisible to people
who see, but are spoken by screen readers, such as skip to navigate, skip to main conduct,
skip to navigation. I can provide information on how to do that if you want. Yes.
In fact, here it is. My apologies. If the HTML screws up, anybody's client was tough,
the last one was tough for me. S are only absolute blah, blah, blah, blah. With one,
height one, padding zero, margin minus one, overflow is hidden and rectangle of zero, border of
zero. So that's useful for hiding everything from CSS. And S are only folk screen reader,
only focusable active S are only focus common focus, static auto auto with height auto auto,
margin zero, overflow visible, click this auto and the start. So put that at the beginning of
your page and then hit your class, skip to main content is only visible for people who
would exist. And the hitreff will not be visible, but my e-readeral speaker, the dev class,
the content role main, don't forget to close the dev or perhaps use a dev or sash thingy.
And then you will see create other landmarks and visible tags, audible to my screen reader,
but not visible to force on dependent types. However, I dislike this, Dave. I'm wrong.
Hmm, because we should have skipped main content, there's skip navigation visible to all,
should not have to hide anything. There's no reason to hide stuff from people.
Make it makes people more aware. Why are they putting that in? What happens if I click on those links?
So I disagree with this fundamentally. Make people aware that there are accessibility issues
and that's what we're trying to tackle. Okay, hit your podcast or hosting platform. Let's do it.
This is about a hitreff, so 3, 6, 5, 8 is hitreff podcast or podcast hosting platform by myself.
In and of course, they're in this episode, are two aging heroes explore the
and the workings of a podcast or the podcast hosting platform depending on your perspective,
called Hacker Public Radio. So my question to the community is, are we a podcast or a podcast hosting
platform? I believe there is a fundamental difference between the two, knowing which we are impacts
the direction we take as a project. Can you please provide you view on this? Can you do window
goal, Dave? And wrong, can you take Dave, please? So window goes says, I see us as a podcast. I don't contribute.
I don't contribute episodes of the window goal podcast to HPR podcast network. I contribute episodes
to HPR. Ron? Sorry, I'm jumping through it just as mine doesn't an
HTML attachment was scrubbed. Maybe I'm not looking, I'm just going forward. It's scrolling through.
It's not your problem, Ron, it's because that's what mailman does.
Oh, I need to click on that attachment thing. No, I don't think you'll just see it.
I think it just chops it right off. It hates HTML. I've more experiences doing this other
Dave, Lisa, that problem. In my somewhat experienced opinion, a podcast is a single feed of a
related episode. A podcast hosting platform is a dedicated service that hosts multiple podcasts.
Based on the definition of HPR, despite often being used as a hosting provider is actually a podcast.
Happy to discuss further. And I'll do justice. Josh says podcast hosting platform would imply that
there are multiple podcasts supported by the platform as far as how the feed readers are concerned.
HPR is a podcast with multiple hosts. Then Kevin O. Brian says, definitely a podcast.
It is a single feed of my G-potter. If it were a network, there would be a separate feed for
every podcast. It's a, it's a, it's a floor wax. No, it's a dessert topping.
And, to my device. Yeah, Mike said, Mike Ray says, it's podcast with multiple hosts.
DNT says it's a podcast of course. And the only important consequence of someone claiming
that HPR is a podcast hosting service is that it raises the possibility that perhaps
hosts shouldn't be allowed to style their shows as a show within HPR as they've syndicated.
Before this, it could be easily tolerated. In my view, the practice is tacky anyway.
You could think that almost 17 years history would be good enough for you to be part of.
hosts who instead dress up as something else are just missing the point to some extent.
Bob, trigolists, replies, throwing a wrench into the works. I love the term podcast.
Podcast implies that it is an apple product while the word pod is not a registered trade style
of the apple corporation. It still sounds like it is somehow associated with apple.
Rather, when I use used to be an audio content creator, I always prefer to refer to
internet audio content as netcast, a a la la lia le port. But the port gave up on trying to
rebrand internet audio content as netcast some time ago. But over the case, I have found that using
netcast doesn't cause confusion, at least to the rare netcaster I write to from time to time.
So it might be a rebranding for HPR to consider giving its given attacker routes.
But to answer the question, I consider HPR to be a netcast with respect Bob.
And I reply, based on the answers around the podcast feed is not going to give a clear answer.
Every host and every series has their own feeds. So I'm going to increase their own feed
pointing to media on HPR or the internet archive. So let me clarify the question to
should we be a podcast or a podcast hosting platform? And I'll do the, okay, sorry, I'm just going to
just kind of switch to Thunderbird where I can do it if you want.
So Dave Lee says, I don't know, it's the same, oh sorry, I don't know, I can't operate my own
podcast. He says, one word in a demo. Yeah, I read it with you, yeah, could you stop
sending HTML on me, send vote? I can really ask those. Yes. Let's see, and drone
baton. Hi, I would vote for a definite no on this one. Let me explain. Currently, the host
are all a bunch of people that would show up in a venn diagram in the nerdy geek
techy section. Becoming a platform would open the site up to a much wider group of people.
No doubt amongst people, no doubt amongst people with good intentions, also less likeable characters.
Think of influencers, people selling disinformation, ultra right, left and middle included here
for completeness. This also means all these other podcasts need to be reviewed and they're
need to be rules and consequently enforcement of set rules. If I look back and see what happens
with somebody pedals, the anti-pandemic stuff, I'm getting really reluctant and endorsing
becoming a platform. Might too sense on the matter. Form greetings and salutations to my fellow
hackers, drone, baton. Kevin says, well, if we're moving from the positive to the normative,
I would say we should remain a podcast. And I added my use sense. I feel we should be a podcast
to maintain the same policy towards accepting and airing shows. From other podcasts that we
currently have, as long as they meet the requirements of posting on HPR, i.e. shows of any topic
that are interested hackers, they post on the accepted schedule currently not more than once
every two weeks if I'm not mistaken. The show can be posted under the same CC license that HPR uses,
they are generally not a disruptive member of the community. The gray areas want to podcast as
holy hosted to HPR versus playing an episode from one which is hosted elsewhere. I think we
ask the host to give a brief summary of an external podcast being aired on HPR at the start of the show
before including the external material. For podcasts which are regularly or wholly hosted on HPR,
the summary isn't requested so far. I don't feel like anyone hosting their podcast on HPR
has abused the spirit of posting on two HPR. For me the connotation of a podcast hosting platform
means either some kind of monetization going on in the background or some kind of sharing of
resources between the podcast and I'm not sure how that would look and work for HPR as is currently
structured. I doubt Josh and an honest host that net would mind some extra capital coming in to
offset HPR resources, they gracil to give to HPR but it would be a completely new dynamic
that we need to be worked out. If we went that route I see a hacker public network or a
hacker public broadcasting network to which HPR would then become a part of that network but HPR
would basically be the same Cheers Ron. And I replied to anyone hosting their podcast on HPR
using this first agreed. I don't think anyone has entered into this. I think everybody has
entered this into good faith. HPR can operate as either a podcast or a podcast hosting platform
but I would like to see the distinction. What did you hear the first part of that? Yes.
Okay and then the second part is first there is no guarantee you're suggesting that the
money will be flowing into the podcast hosting platform where a bunch of deals entered into but
podcasts on a podcast hosting platform there is nothing to suggest that any of the money will
flow to the podcast hosting platforms covers. In fact YouTube, Facebook etc are expected to pay their
content providers. Okay when money gets involved we get a whole other layer of bureaucracy and
oversight and I would much prefer to have nothing to do with. If you want to contribute you send
your donation to Josh and honest host.com or the internet archive. When the HPR needs stuff
the community usually provides as far as needing a podcast hosting platform they're already
is one and that is the internet archive. They already provide an API and they're provide hosting
for us and many other creative comments podcasts as well. In fact that is where HPR shows
have gone that have gone live are hosted. So what value would hosting on HPR provide?
Do you reply? I'm replied. Let's see. So I'll get a coffee while that's going on.
From my point of view we keep the same direction. A podcast that happens to allow other podcasts
to post their episodes in our feed. By direction do you mean the same or is that the question
about direction allowing other shows to host themselves through HPR feed and then in response to your
talking about money and things and excuse me and donating to Josh and I said I didn't
state it but I agree it is another whole level of complexity that is not worth the effort and then
in response to as far as needing a podcasting as platform there already is one and that is the
internet archive and the value of hosting on us I say the value of hosting your shows on HPR at
least initially is a fairly large audience with presumably similar interest is introduced to your
content maybe should have read out everything since Ken is now getting coffee.
Again Ron I would have got no way with it too if it wasn't for
joking silence sorry I'm bad. I think I replied next okay apologies I'm a
misunderstood viewpoint and well doesn't that make us syndicated shows we're only releasing stuff
for HPR we put a rule in the other podcasts sought to post at HPR again audience and we started
having no free slots for HPR only content over the years we stopped a lot of podcasts from
airing on HPR because of the rule but we didn't well what's the stop them hosting on HPR instead
of by passing this rule and to this I replied and this is your in response to your apologies
for misunderstanding the point I said no worries I should have stated that at first my position
was not well implied in my response and then to your point of being a syndication in the rules
on syndication I replied I didn't realize that was an issue while I've recently worked with
the syndication page I obviously haven't read it thoroughly how is this decided currently
whether podcasts can post a HPR or not is it on a case by case decision through the mailing list
I said usually it's clear close if somebody has their own podcast with their own site
on their own feed then they are a syndicated show none of these things were in place when
it in those posts of their first show however I get sent them this email I guys are you
planning this was the first email I said are you planning to release exclusively on HPR are you
planning on hosting your own podcast if the former the no problem if you're planning your
own show then I'm posting a sample episode under the rules stuff you need to know syndication
and if you're doing your own show they will be happy to add you to the free
culture podcasts.org list and I also said in response I think are are you planning to host
your own platform is what's causing the confusion I can imagine that if you thought HPR was a
podcast hosting a platform you might think that the syndication grew in the play as it turns out
that wasn't correct we but that will become obvious later on and we'll do it basically
I can oh okay I just switch though it's the one that says in relation to syndication and
the in laws that's interesting says Dave Lee I thought the syndication rules in place well
before then yes the rules there but they didn't have a word so at the time but actually
that wasn't what happened again Dave says sorry I completely misread it do you want to do
DNT so okay DNT replies honestly I think the idea that HPR would be a podcast hosting platform
has no basis on anything it's largely a self-serving misconception for those who use it as one
probably no one is really upset about the in laws posting their shows as HPR shows they clearly
fit in and it's a good it's good to fill a slide I see this misrepresented I see this like there's been
kind of a some some myotic relationship and then they misrepresented this relationship which is
put HPR and is slightly uncomfortable position it shouldn't change just to get comfortable again
HPR should just reiterate that it's not a podcast hosting platform but rather a podcast
and that as far as it's concerned Linux in laws is a series within HPR as our others and I replied
to give you some background decision to only release material creation extensively from HPR
was taken on the mailing list but as a harsh decision to make and even harder to implement this is
in 2012 and October at the time we had to drop three shows from the podcast and we've turned away
20 different podcasts since then we started free culture podcast.org where we have the podcast
recommendation series in order to lighten the message we're giving in having to turn people away
it sucks turning these shows away especially when you had to call for shows open thankfully most of
these shows remain friends and understand the reasons for the decision we're grateful for the
publicity we could provide and many went on to be HPR contributors flying shows and staffing the
HPR boots while there are many while there may have been doubt to start with the day nix
in laws now definitely qualifies as a syndicated show so again that's not correct but okay
we have rules rules that were agreed after a fair bit of thought and discussion in the community
but the laws are now outside of those rules and puts it in the difficult position whether we
arrived at the by accident or not so to me at least it's rather more than putting HPR into a slightly
uncomfortable position it calls into question the impartiality with which the rules are applied
I need an answer to the question why are they allowed to be on HPR and podcast x isn't
I don't have one I can read Josh says if a series that has been on HPR turns into its own podcast
that's cool but that should mean that it can stand on its own two feet and doesn't require
to be syndicated on HPR doesn't stop them from going and doing a short podcast here covering
the highlight of the other podcast it isn't so much giving them the boot as it is making sure
the podcast stays within the rules the community has to find yeah and Josh is the one who's
paying for the hosting so we do need to consider his words very carefully so two more from me
so hi all I just want to summarize the topic as to my understanding of the current situation
I don't think there is any to amend oh yeah well that's actually how is this where did
Johnny's email come because none of this means it makes any sense they seem in fact if you look
in the red it's sort of jump back to Linux in laws and HPR how did Todd reply to that okay I'll do
another one and figure it out from there I have Todd's up okay I'll do mine and then
you do Todd's the HPR syndication policy was designed to stop podcasts from monopolizing slots in the
HPR question one what would it take to get the Linux in laws into compliance with the
along that's a response to who's Todd wrote question one okay you do Todd's please
oh no first I think I need to rush I have Todd's and it does have the questions yeah with it
I posted the email that I sent to the in laws home on second this is all out of order
so if you open up Todd's one there's all go of nested emails in there
yes so let's read that from the bottom and then work away up so I contacted good I'm gonna read this
so would that be from your one from it says on Wednesday August 17th and you're saying you're
showing with permission I am posting the email and my response to the Linux in there okay yeah so
highlights as I think you're aware yeah that's it I'm a discussion we carried out on the
main list following my request for clarity as the nature of HPR community is of the opinion
that we are not a host hosting platform we do not host podcasts all our series are considered
to be episodes that are part of the HPR podcast this puts your short order with the rule of only
releasing materials exclusive beforehand we are as we have applied this rule to a lot of podcasts
we kind of make an exception here so if you wish to continue to post to HPR then you need to
ensure the content is produced exclusively for HPR if you decide not to follow this path then your
future episodes will need to be hosted elsewhere as your request of commons podcast then you can
for the internet it archive it seems to be a logical place to host host the shows
we are obviously willing to assist with the transition and we can also add you to the show
to the show page on freeculturepodcast.org which by default gets you exposure at any of the
best that our contributors attend we can also send out notices to other people to let them
know who maintain podcasts, floss podcasts list given a lot of people are subscribing to your
RSS feed we can hard-corder redirect to the in-laws feed that they're maintaining over us in
those I'm just going to RSS.xml on Linux in those.au if you want to subscribe now's your chance
and that way you don't lose any dedicated subscribers we would also remind people to add
their feed in the upcoming community news I know there's not great news for you but I'm not
enjoying being a master okay well tell me what you decide and as always you can buy passes
and bring yourself on the mailing list or you can contact a small group of all directors to discuss
a privately with them then you can probably do the in-laws okay so the in-laws route
hike in we certainly followed the discussion on the mailing list with Brian disbelief to be honest
and as yet have not commented as Linux and laws we applaud the democratic approach by listening
to the community the same time we have to ask ourselves can a handful of people commenting on
mailing be considered the whole community as you well know the silent majority tend not to
comment on mailing list that being said we also need to look at the actual arguments being made
HPR is not a podcasting platform and doesn't allow syndication we fully agree and comply with this
as far as Linux in laws are concerned we are a series on HPR just like many others to argue the
case all our content is exclusively produced for and released on HPR yes we have a website but the
same can be said for many serial content producers on HPR website is supporting own supporting only
and does not host and our recordings are set up and the way we publish material has been the same
from the start so why the sudden change of direction for HPR we feel rather single doubt in this
discussion and consider us no different to other series producers on HPR more than happy to discuss
we greatly appreciate HPR and we prefer to remain a part of it Martin and Chris my response to the point
are as follows about the handful of people about the mailing list governance I give a link to
our about page and section governments these emails are also brought to the attention of the entire community
every first Monday of the month the community new show you're listening to it live there the community
in its entirety can and do provide comments any proposal and improvements are welcome and then
to their point about the website yes we have a website but the same can be said of many
serial content producers on HPR and I said please give me an example of the show or series on HPR
that is its own intro and outro which operates its own website has its own feed that post shows
prior to them being there than HPR they will also qualify as a syndicator show and will be treated
according to the same rules in response to our setup that we publish material has been the same
since the start we made you aware of this in the welcome email I sent to new hosts and about
syndication etc and why the sudden change in direction and I supply because of your statement
in the show 3649 if we where he says if we take a look at our guide that over the last year and
half we plug in since we lost this podcast short of two and a half years goal is quite amazing
therefore you consider yourself as a podcast and HPR to be a podcast host in platform from your
perspective and all our contents of please use for HPR I said in yet the website says all
episodes are hosted on HPR we feel in response to we feel rather singled out in this discussion
consider us no different from other series or apply I'm very sorry that you feel that way
but you're not the first and you won't be the last podcast to have the rules applied
at the time we have had to drop three different shows from the podcast and turn away three
different podcasts and then I can be assured you that we would have preferred to have dealt with
this at the beginning now you can do narcissism this is for life okay I know it's replies
I have a few questions about the syndication policy hopefully I'm not over complicating the issue
question one what would it take to get the Linux in laws into compliance with the HPR
syndication policy the biggest issue I see is the separate Linux in laws feeds with
unpublished HPR episodes what if they replace their feed with the HPR series feed question two
is is a HPR host having a separate website to promote their HPR episodes okay
in question three many HPR episodes are audio versions of a webpage previously published by the host
does an audio version of an existing webpage verbatim or summarized meet the requirement
of material created exclusively for HPR so I reply the HPR syndication policy was designed to
stop the cut to cast from monopolizing slots in HPR so response quests to one stop being a podcast
start posting shows consider shows from plateau or naturalize do you have any difficulty knowing
if their shows were intended for HPR or if they were from their own podcast response to question
two having a separate website and promoting on HPR the answer is yes of course have a look
as a hooker as we link hyper public radio in fact when he submits a show or posts there
we say we see several hundred redrex from his site two HPR question three does the audio version
extend webpage etc does that meet the requirements of material created exclusively for HPR
probably not because it is content because does the audio version of a existing webpage
meets the requirements of material created exclusively for HPR probably not it is their content
and they are creating new medium from HPR take the dust series that was posted years
ago but the shows were recorded for his HPR however it will be done on the case by case
basis the biggest issue if he sees is separate feed I reply no that's not the biggest issue the
biggest issue is that we've been turning other podcasts away with the same reasons that we
turned to Linux in those we do not syndicate podcasts on HPR so is the Linux in those podcasts
it's to use the same if it looks like a duck walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck
okay and actually what I'm not even sure I'm coming across here what the issue was
really even rereading this even though it didn't apply here but if we say somebody can host on HPR
you could take a, I don't know, plateau shield the getting world order and he could post all
the shows on HPR and then maintain his own feed pointing to the internet archive or
our shows on HPR and that would conform to the rules in paper on paper but yeah
don't know if you get what I mean why there's an issue with this I mean so they are
that the in those methods are about that there are series and that they're hosting on HPR you
know everything is pointing to HPR even if we accepted that argument we could have all the other podcasts
do exactly the same thing just publish the regular show onto our free onto via the HPR website
yeah yes and then okay you know that's what the whole syndicate rules about
okay and this is the Yanick one but it's just classic gosh and this is why I will Yanick appear
Yanick says gosh I didn't think anything would break me break my silence but I have to
I'm not the sort of guy to say I told you so boss dot dot dot on Thursday February the 13th
uh a 4 40 40 PST 2020 that's two and a half years ago I wrote an email titled HPR
309 in which I said I'm writing you today because I'm concerned about episode 3009 this seems to
me to be a clear case of syndication first the title then extent those season one episode one
and then the fact that there's no way to mention of HPR at all in the show the whole thing is
there and the link I stand by my position the Linux in those in this current form has no business
on HPR and their brackets oh well I better go to it for now I told you so anyway back to
be the pilot Yanick the French guy from Switzerland now this is what I completely forgot to do
and maintain and manage that that was amazing like when I read that one so thanks Yanick I've
like completely forgotten this thread link the show knows then I was at the standard
foster and I spoke to Chris and it became clear that their website and feed were not active
so they are posting exclusively to HPR so we are bootstrapping their show for them
once they have everything ready they will move their show to their own feeds and become their
own free culture podcasts site
yeah do Jason please I missed most of this because work is beating me down but it's always
appeared to me that Linux in was was made for HPR so far
Richard I've just worked enough to do this next one sambong who says I feel it is how one
represents themselves an episode of for HPR or a podcast host Don HpR I agree with the
policy current HpR is not a host in my view that's sung by Brian and I reply a total
agree they were intended to be hosted on HPR for now to be honest I don't think they even
knew HPR was anything other than the podcast host in platform based on listening to episode
3649 20 years in review I was the first to make the distinction between podcast and podcast host in
platform in my response show and I met it clear in there what they consider to be a podcast host in
platform and in this episode are two aging teams cause I could public radio yes the platform that
Linux in laws have been using since its very inception of this rapidly growing
floss podcast content that's why I asked the email list are we a podcast host in platform
if we were there will be some justification for them to continue here as they are not then there isn't
occasion I do Jason Dodd he says I'm confused one of my unrealized goals is to create a
least one show at least one show a week naming them with some catchy name plus an incrementing number
posting them exclusively to HPR that seems to be what the external has been doing is the thinking
and can't do that because HPR is not podcast hosting platform let's see Kevin O'Brien says I
would think there are two problems here potentially first if your plan amounts to having
HPR host your own podcast obviously that is wrong but we also asked that people do not post more
than once every two weeks you may know that I have adhered to this pretty strictly unless there
is an emergency of low shows and even then I check with the janitors first to see if they want
the added show having a series on HPR is not a problem but I think we do that by topic I have
started several series here but I've always made it clear that I don't own the topic and everyone
else is free to contribute to me the ethos of HPR is that it is a collective in which group
members contribute and to be clear all of the above of my personal opinion which others are free to
disregard with regards Jason says then I suppose I'll stop with the shows that I do have recorded
but haven't uploaded I consider the few shows I've done now my irregular podcast that's posted
to HPR and he says we also have people do not post more than once every two weeks that's true
and I was being a bit optimistic I assure every two months from me would be downright impressive
and who says that his personal opinion what he said I guess it's a distinction without a
difference to me a series on HPR is the same as the podcast on a specific topic
only hooks to do on HPR this discussion has been informative I now know what I plan to do
wouldn't be appropriate for HPR fortunately what I'm doing is perfectly suitable for HPR listening
and continued to practice procrastinating on sitting down to record the show every two or three weeks
and I reply it takes for a little to run your own podcast nowadays create an account on the
internet archive upload your media there create a smaller SS file on your own demand
which points to the media on the internet archive and you're done you can help you if you
run into problems and advise you how you can increase your exposure and there's about a series on
HPR is the same as a podcast on a specific topic only hosted on HPR
HPR tag is an ad hoc grouping of a shows on the topic a HPR series tends to be open to
multiple holes on the defining group around the topic for example there's 50 on how I got into
tech there's 44 interviews it's 34 what's in my toolkit and 20 in privacy and security etc
so x1101 replying the Jason Todd on I guess it's a distinction without a difference to me
I disagree there's there's a very clear difference I would be welcome they encouraged to
add shares to the DOS game security and privacy or any of the other fantastic series that
Kevin has started slash contributed to over the years I don't think the same would be considered true
for Linux and laws interesting the host of you random myself Taj Poki had a discussion about this
when we decided that we couldn't maintain our audio book club schedule but still wanted to do a show one
this guest option was to do a few HPR exclusive episodes to work out the bugs and then
host it ourselves because the policy has always been clear about the difference between
HPR series and a syndicated podcast slash episode we didn't do this because we found other ways
to approach it policies clear and this is absolutely slid into a clear violation of the policy
and Claudia says hi everybody I've been following this email thread for quite a while but haven't
said much about anything but I am an agreement HPR is a podcast and not a podcast in hosting
platform the reason being as follows there used to be a couple of guys who started on HPR
the Alien Brothers podcast they had a number of episodes in HPR but the eventual intent
if I'm not mistaken was to move away from the HPR host and host their podcasts on their own
they were merely using HPR as a large pad for their own podcast gun or some listeners
eventually they did move on to their own feed for their podcast but sadly it popped faded
some of their HPR episodes are still available via the archive so there should be given
so that should give HPR enough backing regarding the situation anyway that's my two cents on the
budget I can read Chris off's yeah once dear community first of all the in laws would like to
thank the HPR community for their feedback over the years and especially the last few days
can is of course right and pointing out the bootstrapping argument and Wednesday's reply to
the NX mail though we never really defined how long this bootstrapping period would last
in addition to the above the assessment of the situation our mail from Wednesday
republished in kins' mail situation from an in-laws perspective hasn't changed since we published
our first episode in the early 2020 the content is published exclusively on HPR NROS S speed points
to HPR only having said that I cannot get rid of that sinking feeling that HPR in its community
shy away from success if kins' analysis published recently reference one is anything to go by
we are one of HPR's most popular podcasts which regularly publishes content in addition to the fact
that we are syndicated left right and center without any involvement of our own as we found out
a while ago there's for an example youtube channel republishing the audio content and giving HPR credit
but let's take a look at the bigger picture if our experience never mind the feedback we are getting
through official and other channels or anything to go by the vast majority of our listeners couldn't
care less where they get their episodes from they heard a read about the podcast search for the
RSS speed subscribe to it and if they like what they hear download from a server they stick with
us into the story and this late any discussion about wording podcast versus hosting platforms
that said is academic and thus a relevant for these listeners playing devil's advocates for the
above of course never mind ignoring by laws it said smiley face of course by laws or by laws
and feelings that we may have overstate or welcome we are happy to move the content elsewhere
probably archived.org as suggested by kin which also has a side effect of reducing the technical
debt of the corresponding automation workflow significantly but do so with a bittersweet feeling
as we do believe in the true spirit of the floss communities and their welcoming inclusive attitude
thus having made every effort to promote HPR and its cause as part of the episodes in elsewhere
which is in stark contrast to the wording of some of the comments posted to the HPR mailing list
over the last couple days on an interesting side note HPR seems to be actively soliciting podcasts
from other platforms if for example the case of grumpy old coders is anything to go by and it's
most recent episode David speaks about HPR having reached out to them trying to move them over to
HPR given the fact this format is hosted on a proprietary platform soundcloud with their
form formatics exhibiting far more restrictive aspects for example they published a content under
all rights reserve license and contrast to CC by SA as preferred by HPR and knowing David the producer
this format quite well as he is one of my colleagues for the last years it would surprise me
of such an endeavour would prove successful never mind the above the in laws would like to thank
HPR for having us for the last two and a half years and wish this platform our words smiley face
every possible success for the future but it may help in order to avoid similar incidents in the
future to be clear about syndication never mind what the difference is between a show a series
and a podcast as far as HPR is concerned as the wording in reference for somewhat is somewhat
correcters and then they have their references listed and I reply I request for while you're entitled to your opinions
I do need to correct you in a few inaccuracies in your mail regarding if Ken's analysis published
is anything to go by where HPR's most popular podcast what I've been told in the analysis was
they 170 additional subscribers that you get to your own feed as no one else promotes their own HPR subscribers
we need to track that from the download figures to be fair to the other shows so the first day
release numbers of the show mostly averaging 700 between 726 and 753 that would make their first download
583 regarding the huge cheap channel content and giving HPR credit I can't see that there are
assigning credit or even the flagging the content as creative comes unless you mean in the audio stream
itself which was created by HPR and I gave a youtube dl Jason download dump where I confirm that
there is no mention of hack the public radio or hack or indeed or HPR our the word creative
comes look out David speaks about HPR having reached out to find move them over the statements
is not correct and I would appreciate it if you could contact Dave and correct his understanding
fortunately in the entire conversation is publicly untwitter have you where I say have you ever
considered releasing your content as creative commons we promote shows both on HPR and also on
free co-fier podcast at all for both we would need to have your RSS feed or you don't qualify as a podcast
somebody do I'll see them x111 see this right here he says referring to
exact in laws say they're one of HPR's most popular podcast see this right here it's exactly
the disconnect HPR is one podcast simply cannot be one of HPR's most popular podcast because
brackets one is not a competition and more importantly two HPR is a single podcast then in relation
to the RSS feed and similar argument sure fine whatever that's not really relevant to the questions
at hand one way or the other and if it were very much points to you using HPR is something that
we the broader HPR community decided that it is not a platform to host your own podcast from
and then in this like a discussion about wording podcast versus hosting platforms etc it is academic
in the the original picks on one of the ones says maybe for their aren't on twist
and comment about bylaws or bylaws I don't want to point out that that was not the only option presented
and regarding reducing the or the technical debt of corresponding automation work flow significantly
meaning I'll cut all these here to drive than HPR is this is absolutely no call for this kind of
backhanded comment the HPR admin struck genesis have consistently worked improve the
tooling of the site to support the HPR workflow or keeping everything is already exists functional
as it is this is one of the worst sour grapes examples I've seen in the long time and really
belittles the work they do to circle back to one more point he says having said the quote is
having said that I can't get rid of that sinking feeling the HPR and its community shy away from
a success no says x111 and when I think we define success differently speaking personally if the
success of any one HPR series doesn't translate into success for the community as a whole then
it's not really success for HPR having said all that I still wish the best of luck going forward
I hope that there's nothing more than an honest disagreement between a group of well-meaning folks
and the inside T says it's good because of this no one will be able to question whether listeners
are your own or HPR's making any claims of success your review beautiful perhaps your right
that HPR has tended to shy away from success in those 17 years jokes aside I do enjoy your shows
and appreciate your work to feature guests we want to hear from so I look forward to subscribing to your
feed and continuing to listen now for the things pertaining to HPR that we have all have talked
about here I think considering how easy it is to have your own CC license podcast by hosting it
on the I8A and how well such prospective podcasters can be expected to host an RSS feed to point
to the audio files it seems likely the only really good reason to slot one's podcast into the
HPR feed is to access HPR listeners then the question for the community should be do we want
to sample new podcasts within the HPR feed for me the answer would tend to be no because again
I think we should always keep the focus on attracting new contributors it's what sets HPR
part and it's the principle that should guide every decision without exception it's the diversity
of voices and experiences of people who wouldn't be otherwise a podcaster if someone can argue
that this would help convince this nurse to become trying to be sure that we should talk about
just for me a new podcast host or host wanting to gain subscribers can send a regular HPR show
and tell us how that if how that if we like their vibe they're started their own podcast
we can subscribe to as tattoo as done those who like this will follow and Carl Hammond replies
let's see two this is I think to the entities comment on track focusing on tracking new contributors
what's a support HPR part this this is what the HPR community has defined as success more
contributors not more listeners not more episodes per contributor granted more listeners can mean
can be a means to that end but probably not if those listeners couldn't care less where they
get their episodes from I've enjoyed the handful of the endless episodes I've listened to
but I think our goals just aren't aligned if HPR carried as though it were a network
10 twice monthly podcasts there would be no slots left open for new contributors that's the reason
the current policy exists and we should seek to apply it equitably I appreciate Ken's offer
about aiding in a smooth transition or for listeners who have come to Linux and laws VHPR I hope
that sentiment makes the intent clear this is not a management but rather an knowledge meant
that you've outgrown us struggling to communicate clearly from a French keyboard because I am too
lazy to change it doesn't doesn't lean dear Kevin says like completely agree we need more
holes who are part of HPR and Brian Navarret who is Brian in Ohio says goodbye and knows
you'll never be as good as the outdoors no jokes aside oh that bird that bird let me see
I think that was the end unless there's another thread no it's the we have to go back to the very
first one where I give to some oh there was more oh was it later on maybe it was an
Xbox or better covered now because I don't want to go back to this I sure I don't see anything
and I think we managed to cover them all no because I've replied I've replied to that with with an
apology actually so you're message of the 22nd Ken which was sent in applied to monochromic and to the list
so is that the one another another my own means no it's somewhere else because I sent it
in the middle of the night for a club in the morning and I went to the admin list at least I
I've got oh no it went it's on the admin list I think the one you're thinking of
did you go to the admin list it's a knuckle to the mailing list on the 20th
Arbor goes to the admin list with the reply from Chris stuff oh I didn't did I not send it
oh that has that should have gone to everybody all right so that's everybody now
okay um I'll read it now even though it's covered in next once
too long didn't read Ken makes up to find out that he has wrong again and all's the Linux and
all's an apology high all I've had some time to stand back and think about how I've handled
this situation and now you all the Linux and all's an apology as this is at several times from
their point of view nothing has changed since joining HBR they still believe I believe they believed
and believe HPR to be a podcast hosting platform that they have used in good fate
I now see that in that light they have done all that was asked of them and more
in forgetting that we were bootstrapping their podcast and getting forced
treated at their apparent flooding of the syndication room I have done HPR and the Linux
in laws of disservice they have not done anything wrong I would like to apologize to all
concerned unfortunately as I have spent so much effort putting HPR proving HPR is not a podcast
hosting platform I am now left with the problem of dealing with a floss podcast without a home
this is not a good look and is exactly the opposite of what I was trying to achieve
the in laws will need some time to transition to their own site their schedule is recorded several
months in advance so they will need some time to migrate in an orderly fashion
the move to a new hosting would need to be earned out as well as notifying their listeners as
to the change that is happening and we need to make sure that the fleet's redirect
awesome asking I would like to ask the HPR community's tolerance for this exception for a period of
say six months so that we can round season one off here in good order and I hope that extra
time will give them the opportunity to amend that some fences suffice to say I owe Martin
Chris and indeed Janik some beers at false stem for mess and I'll do the replies from Chris as
well because it makes sense. Hi Tan HPR men's no worries we would like to thank HPR for having
us for the last few and half years and remember that once the laws have reached their ultimate goal
world domination all 10 that until then the second 10 beers are on us we'll meet again at the next
false stem or whatever. Let's take the technical transition or RSS feed all fine and Chris will
be in touch via the HPR maybe in this shortly. Okay do you get all that? I don't know that's
making strange to people but when I sat down and talked about it from the in laws point of view
they consider us to be a HPR to be a podcast hosting platform and from that perspective
there were bootstrapping their show admittedly two and a half years is a long boot of process but
that said yeah that's just nice. I never got the feeling that they were they were working from
you know a dishonest position I think you know they just were you know and it sucks that
it got to this point and you know that the mailing list did get a little heated at times but you
know I think can you've done a great job I know you've probably taken yourself every time
you think about it but you know you've handled it well they've been very gracious and dealing you know
with the change and I think you know that response I mean it would have been nice to see it on
on the mailing list because it did sort of all of a sudden you know I did remember you saying
something about at some point then being the least the next couple shows being hosted I don't remember
I heard that but I do remember like hearing or reading that somewhere so you know it was more
in the morning and I thought throughout me yeah now I mean it happens but I think that's you know it's
it's a fair resolution to the situation I mean no you know they weren't everybody's
cup of tea but I think you know it's good to keep the the fences is minted as much as we can
and you know I think it's good that we're helping them transition and you know everything I'm
sure you've had to go you know do to make it it possible so not a great situation but I think
it'll you know overall I think in the long run it'll it'll it'll all be good yeah absolutely
yeah I should have I should have kept track of the yeah all the if we were doing a bootstrap thing
should have kept track of us and then you know three shows in and there are web sizes up and there are
speeders on I should have contacted them to ask them okay what the plan was but anyway that's
the problem Yannick you should have reminded me I blame Yannick let's all blame Yannick
we could do in some sort of a leaflet or something for giving that type of situation you know
we'd like you to to bootstrap by our HP or if you would like to do that and you were open to it
but here the here the the grand rooms yeah I don't think we'll do that again I really don't
because right now what we do what I would do is it's so easy to post to the internet archive now
you know there's and if somebody doesn't have the money further on domain yeah we can we can
see about getting them their own domain and you know some but asking somebody's sponsor for year or
whatever because you know there's no yeah there's no benefit in going via HP or well there is
yeah you get you and I you get me transcoding this shows and you get you doing the grammar check
and the show notes and everything in order and you get that whole thing but unless it's a
unless the HP or episode I really don't want to be spending that effort in it granted with a
free culture podcast website we do contact those sites if they've got anything wrong with their
XML file or stuff like that tell them out so yeah we will help shows that's what we're here to
do but are going via HP or doesn't add any value because it also is a restrictive you know
how frustrated the the endless guys were with the not being able to automate the upload and
now I can completely see you know it's just looking at the amount of like support requests that we had
was by far more coming from from the endless guys than anybody else and I can completely see
why now because your podcast hosting platform yet you're not making it easier easy for us to
host our podcast in your platform yeah but your your HP or your your part of the HP or
every yeah but your podcast hosting platform so I can you know forward back in the morning
woke up and I completely realized why there's sort of frustration with the whole thing but you know
and to me I always had the feeling we had this special mode but I don't just post the one taught
I made so badly but I don't just go to the internet archive and I got to them we are the internet archive
you know we're just a way of hosting via via and two and a half years ago it was a lot harder
to post to the internet archive yes yes it it it was getting better at that point in my experience
but but it was not very well documented and that type of thing so yeah yeah but they do have
tools where you can just say here's my show here's all the stuff is all the files put it up on
on the the IA and you can do it from your your own machine if you have your foot or
your authentication etc etc so it has become very easy so good yeah and just and don't
just reply going the whole thing has moved me firmly into the listener side of the house
if Linux and those isn't for HP or none of my content would be yep and that brings me back
to the question like if you're really in your own podcast like cloud two for instance
how does cloud two work oh I've lots of questions for cloud two
cloud two should come to foster by the way just by the bike we're already got a
amount 0.5% chance that you will be there folks so if you encourage him send an email to
cloud two as whatever is email address is now and tell him to come to foster that's a by the bike how
does he decide what show goes to the new world order what show goes to HP or that's a
that's an interesting topic actually that will be shown itself yeah sure but it's a
new world order when it go to HP R yeah I'm the first thing thing is I hear it's on I hear a
tattoo show and I go okay where is it I really hope it's on HP R because then the show looks
good to be better sorry that's so that's a that's a dig as Dave forcing everybody to have
show notes and I'm so important I think at some of the show notes we've looked at today wow
oh yeah I think it makes my point yeah does there for also for accessibility reasons I've been
going to it a hundred a hundred thousand times it's if you do go to a new world order is very
difficult to find the episodes with just a one-liner sometimes he doesn't even have it
that he discussed an entire topic makes it frustrating to find yes I know I enjoy the topics
that he covers but I have an occasion in gone what was that thing again oh never know let's
listen to the show again actually what we need to do is we need to have that HP Lovecraft
go over and do all his shows no just require some so he's got to require some cash that is
the fastest fix okay have we flaunt this one to death there's going to be a two-hour show
seem to quite flugged from my perspective okay well hopefully we won't have to deal with any
of the fallout from that but we have the redirects in place and well not in place yes until they're
hooked on but we have a test redirect in place that should work and then we need to pin
their show so the people subscribe to their podcast and all should be good any other business Dave
there was the there were two AOB things one was the gitty repository that we're using on
an honest host requires people to log in to to view the repositories and Josh is very keen that
that would be the case it doesn't want anonymous access to it so are we happy with that or
do we want to move the code elsewhere there's a question yeah that is a question and we're
putting it here because community needs to decide my personal opinion is to have an account
what makes sense yeah yeah I mean you mean you could potentially upgrade to
being being a contributor more easily yeah yeah the other subject sorry I just know that as
well because it means that at some day we might go to submitting your shows via a pull request or
something up there and Rome will have to explain to me how this all works because he seems to
be using the site as I was intended and I'm not able to do that so call for shows they're at
Rome can you record how to use good luck I can thank you for that excellent I'll add that to my
awesome issue document okay so I could you author please god no just saying the re-opload stuff
is still progressing I got so fed up with fiddling around with the numbers to give an update each
month I just turned it into a table which just gets pulled out of the database it saves me a lot
less pressure a lot of work so so we've done 150 five this month and there's 828 to go
yeah it's about sorry I want to cut you off there about doing the show or about using get luck
get tea oh no yeah I can that is a good idea I hadn't really thought about that
yeah okay I don't know what other I had so yeah I kind of mixed on I could definitely see
needing and then I understand I mean it's just probative it's for is like needing that it's just
I'm afraid that some people aren't just gonna like go and glance at it I don't know you know it's
like dude allow read only for the public and not but anyway that's another thing if I can always
I mean we could always have like a copy of it running somewhere and just you know say if you
want to participate come to the actual thing and I could maintain you know keeping them synchronized
but anyway not a big deal it's fine the way it is but I do encourage people please just go
sign up take a look at the code give us some feedback it would be a big help keep my encouragement up
yeah I think but on the repo you can actually log in with a get lab or a google account or an
open idea or something like that so you don't have to physically create a new account you can just
extend your credentials over there so it's not that big a deal well I get your point we should
probably make a version of the code you know just have it on the web size or something yeah
we should probably talk to Popeye about this because it's his fault we're doing this in the
first place and not to extend it maybe I'll just post this either to you or I'm just thinking um
because I thought at one point you had said you wanted to have like instead of using like our
thing basically I get of the whole website and then you would just like do a pool to get everything
well for the code you would do a pull down the repo and then you get access to your code and
everything's home to do it either for the website and then you could generate your own copy of
the website if you want it or you publish it to a nursing site and then we can set up a nursing
from there the people can nursing the entire thing okay all right yeah but it's not it's not
mutually exclusive on both okay I wanted wow okay I would talk offline about publishing them to
public hacker media yeah I'll be public radio just a yeah yeah yeah they I'll be public radio
that would be another one is all probably appropriate given her but we also have a think about
how one would post shows via get yeah yeah I mean we yeah have a think about that people having
ideas of that so this is so that would be good to figure out okay it is now seven o'clock in
the evening there is no chance whatsoever that I will be able to go out and finish the job that
it was doing in the garden yes so um there you go yeah so this all makes it most thing was a
was just a way to rather community so I would be plenty of feedback so I'd be stuck in here
and get under work I still have time in my day to go do the grass unfortunately yeah
okay folks tune in tomorrow for another exciting episode of hacker
public public now no no from the top yeah I go hacker Dave goes public and then you go radio
ready tune in tomorrow but you know that won't work I go tune in tomorrow Dave goes hacker you
go public and we all go radio how about that tune in tomorrow the day the day the day
tune in tomorrow for another exciting episode of hacker public
and anybody who has survived the end of this please add a comment in the
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