[Hpr] Hpr Digest, Vol 55, Issue 17

David Whitman davidglennwhitman at gmail.com
Tue Apr 23 04:55:52 PDT 2013


I'll weigh in on the show queue thing. My latest show (now in the queue) is
from the list of show ideas. Not an important topic and not really vital
info.

As a long time listener I became a contributor when I wanted to 'hang out'
with HPRites at a Linux Fest. I'm a noob. It's getting better but that's
the way it is. But I love the FLOSS way and HPR is an open community to
anyone.Turns out no one from HPR was actually going to the fest in my area
and then I had to make a decision to either be the HPR table guy (which
meant I had to do an interview with the organizers -over mumble no less and
the rest of what is entailed) or just go to the fest . I got over the first
time contributor hump and now I want to be sure HPR is healthy.

Nuff said about that...........I would suggest that we can somehow tag our
shows for the automated queue to indicate we don't give a damn about when
they are 'today's show'. As far as I am concerned my shows can be  "IN CASE
OF FIRE BREAK GLASS". (ie use them if you have to). I want to be able to
let HPR know if I feel the content should be in the regular queue but not
in the GRIM REAPER bucket.

Summary - At least 3 tiers of queue - 1. Regular Queue, 2. Use if needed,
3. The end is near.

Thanks to Ken for his work on HPR and all others who contribute in any way.
By the way...If I am in your area (anyone) I'll be stopping by for dinner.
davidWHITMAN


On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 8:49 PM, <hpr-request at hackerpublicradio.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Show flow rate (Ken Fallon)
>    2. Re: Visibility of the show queue/calendar (Frank Bell)
>    3. Re: Visibility of the show queue/calendar (Keith Murray)
>    4. Re: Visibility of the show queue/calendar (Dave Morriss)
>    5. Re: Show flow rate (Kevin O'Brien)
>    6. Re: Hpr Digest, Vol 55, Issue 16 (Fifty OneFifty)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ken Fallon <ken.fallon at gmail.com>
> To: epicanis+hpr at dogphilosophy.net
> Cc: hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 21:56:42 +0200
> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Show flow rate
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:46:45 -0400
> epicanis+hpr at dogphilosophy.net wrote:
>
> > The direction this is going worries me a bit. The focus lately has
> > been entirely on "shows on hand" with less attention to "show
> > flow" (except as something to make "shows on hand" as big as
> > possible).
> Your show has been uploaded on 2013-03-26 and should be released this
> week. That's a average wait time of a month, not ideal but in that time
> we have had a lot of new and returning hosts plus a 4 slot backlog from
> the previous queuing system.
>
> We have been running the first in first out system for 2 years and we
> are barely into four months of the "longest release date" method.
> Which still had carry over from the previous method. So let's give it a
> chance and see how it works when we are in "famine" mode.
> >
> > > Well I do [care when shows are released], because this network will
> > > cease to exist if shows do not continue to come in. Right now, New
> > > or Older hosts looking at the Calendar might not contribute because
> > > it looks like we are swimming in shows. We are not. We still need
> > > 166 shows to fill to the end of the year.
> >
> > This implies that in mid-November or so nobody should bother doing
> > any more shows, because we'll have all the shows we need to fill to
> > the end of the year...obviously that's not the intention. I think the
> > "number of shows to fill the whole year" count is a distraction at
> > best (the year end is something of an arbitrary distinction).
> But will we have enough shows by mid-November ? The spring is by far
> the most prolific and we're living on that for the rest of the year.
>
> During the summer there are no shows submitted. None. Weeks go by
> without shows going into the queue except from the fallback hosts who
> respond to the call. I would need to spend a lot of time proving that,
> but giving the file naming having now upload date, it should be easier
> to track and graph wait times.
>
> >
> > I also think it would be potentially fatal to HPR if 166 people
> > showed up tomorrow to fill all of those slots. If they did, anyone
> > (other than first-time contributors) who submitted a show would be
> > waiting until next year for the show to be useful.
> I would hope that the regular contributors would be happy that there
> are new hosts on board. However once they post their show, it's back to
> the end of the line for them and they get the same crack of the whip as
> anyone else.
>
> > That would kill the reinforcement that can make contributing to HPR a
> > habit for at least some of us.  (It's like sending a check to a
> > charity who "really needs your donation!" but then the check doesn't
> > get cashed for half a year.) I suspect contributions would crash as a
> > result.
> If your show is in for six months, then yes fair point but a months
> delay is not a lot. I could be wrong here, perhaps people expect their
> shows to be out sooner. If that's the case then someone needs to crack
> the nut of supply versus demand.
> >
> > This might be a factor in the boom-and-bust cycles HPR seems to go
> > through sometimes.
> Might be, but if you continue to upload the check will be cashed
> sooner or later.
> >
> > > The logical thing to do would be to remove the files from the
> > > Calendar page. I have just now done this for all the shows. The
> > > page now focuses on hosts only.
> > >
> > > Waitttttttt.
> > >
> > > The only reason that the files were ever shown is to allow the
> > > hosts to know that they have been processed. To that end I put the
> > > file list on the ftp server in a file called queue.txt. That way
> > > the hosts get to know where the shows are.
> > >
> > > Is that sufficient or should we continue to shoot ourselves in the
> > > foot by listing all the shows ?
> >
> > I like the change overall (the files list made the page look a lot
> > fuller than it really was, though I DO miss seeing what topics were
> > pending), but I would take issue with the "shoot ourselves in the
> > foot" comment. It just doesn't feel right to me to hide HPR's backlog
> > as a psychological trick to get new first-time contributors (the
> > latency due to the backlog doesn't apply to new contributors, so the
> > only element this alleviates is the lack of urgency - recurring
> > contributors are affected by both).
> >
> > The host list alone indicates that there are at least three weeks
> > worth of shows in the queue so it's not really hiding the backlog,
> > just understating it (there's 2 full months worth of shows ready
> > right now - Ahuka, Ken Fallon, and Klaatu have put in some serious
> > labor!) . Anyone currently in the queue who wants to contribute more
> > has to get over the fact that whatever work they put into it won't be
> > useful to HPR for about a month or more.
>
> No anyone who has *multiple* shows in the queue. And they already know
> that. Ahuka has said that he expects to take off during the summer and
> has released the shows for that purpose. Klaatu has released shows in
> batches, that's what he does. Those shows of mine are a year and a half
> old and if the go out next week or in three months isn't going to make
> much of a difference. The release order is actually right there on the
> page "Last release time of show hosts:". Your up next, then Mike then
> sigflup. Once you release your show, the clock starts ticking for you
> again. If you submit a show the day after or a month after, your place
> will be kept in the queue.
>
> This benefits new hosts but it also benefits old hosts that submitted
> and didn't bother again. And it benefits HPR as the mix of hosts is
> greatly increased. The point is it's not just you that is waiting to
> get posted, it's everyone. All of us that are waiting behind you
> right now in the queue. But so long as the rules are followed I am
> happy waiting. On a very important side note, and if anyone at anytime
> feels the rules are not been followed, well shout, right here on this
> list.
>
> >
> > I would suggest that HPR's need is NOT "166 more shows this year" but
> > rather "4-5 shows per week for the next 34 weeks and beyond", and I
> > think the distinction is important. Having a big backlog that can
> > supply 4-5 shows per week for a while is one way of doing this, but
> > at a certain point it just turns into podstipation inhibiting the
> > flow of new submissions.
> I agree. I can change that but how many weeks do you pick ? I would say
> a year because our most bountiful time is the spring.
>
> > I'm not entirely sure what the actual solution would be to getting a
> > more sustainable balance between the submission rate and the
> > publication rate. Although whenever this topic comes up several of us
> > suggest shoving out the shows faster in one way or another, Ken's got
> > me questioning whether that's really the right approach.
> Everyone assumes that releasing more would be a good idea. However if
> we started releasing on Saturday and Sunday it _would_ lead to people
> unsubscribing. We release a massive amount of content as it is and it's
> the thing I hear most from people who have subscribed is that they cant
> keep up and feel guilty having missed shows.
>
> >
> > What would motivate you all to contribute more regularly?
> Contribute your shows and let the queue do what the queue does. I
> personally go through spurts where I'll record several shows and upload
> them then not bother for a while again. This has the happy side effect
> that I have forgotten my show and can hear it again as a hpr listener,
> spotting the mistakes, and assumptions that I made in the fist show.
>
> Ken.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Frank Bell <frankwbell at cox.net>
> To: hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 16:21:14 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Visibility of the show queue/calendar
> On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 20:40:38 +0200
> Ken Fallon <ken.fallon at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Just my personal view. Being the geek I am I found watching the
> > > queue fascinating.
> >
> > Glad you did. I'd like to hear what other people think as, while I'm
> > admitting nothing, I may be a smigin paranoid about getting shows in
> > the queue.
>
> I can address this:  The only reason I ever have checked the show list
> is to make sure that my submissions have arrived safely.  Other than
> that, I take HPR as it comes.
>
> ----------------------
>
> As an aside, I fail to see how the visibility of the list of upcoming
> shows has anything whatsoever to do with the "hacker ethos," but that's
> just me.  It seems to me wholly a tactical editorial decision, not in
> any way an ethical one, except under the sort of reasoning which would
> claim that "everything is ethics."
>
> I learned long ago (in the context of battles over dining car recipes,
> as a point in fact) that sometimes an arbitrary choice between two
> equal alternatives is required--some choice, even a bad one, is oft
> better than no choice.
>
> (The proximate cause of this learning was a dispute over whether to use
> the Santa Fe recipe or the Pennsylvania Railroad recipe for something or
> other on Amtrak dining cars.  Ex-SF folks wanted one, ex-PRR folks
> wanted the other, and both were ready to argue to the death to such a
> point that the item was likely never to make it to the menu. As
> I said, it was a long time ago.)
>
> --
>
> Blogging From Pine View Farm (http://www.pineviewfarm.net/weblog).
> Updates daily.  Worthwhile updates occasionally.
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Keith Murray <kdmurray at kdmurray.com>
> To: "hpr at hackerpublicradio.org" <hpr at hackerpublicradio.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 13:50:19 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Visibility of the show queue/calendar
>
> <naiveNoobSuggestion>
>
> Could it be as simple as burying the show list one page deeper? Don't
> display it on the main page where it is now, but keep it there for someone
> who really wants to see it?
>
> That would keep the data "open", while de-cluttering the page and reducing
> the number of people who would routinely see that there's a bunch of stuff
> in the queue?
>
> </naiveNoobSuggestion>
>
> K.
>
> On 2013-04-22, at 13:21, Frank Bell <frankwbell at cox.net> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 20:40:38 +0200
> > Ken Fallon <ken.fallon at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Just my personal view. Being the geek I am I found watching the
> >>> queue fascinating.
> >>
> >> Glad you did. I'd like to hear what other people think as, while I'm
> >> admitting nothing, I may be a smigin paranoid about getting shows in
> >> the queue.
> >
> > I can address this:  The only reason I ever have checked the show list
> > is to make sure that my submissions have arrived safely.  Other than
> > that, I take HPR as it comes.
> >
> > ----------------------
> >
> > As an aside, I fail to see how the visibility of the list of upcoming
> > shows has anything whatsoever to do with the "hacker ethos," but that's
> > just me.  It seems to me wholly a tactical editorial decision, not in
> > any way an ethical one, except under the sort of reasoning which would
> > claim that "everything is ethics."
> >
> > I learned long ago (in the context of battles over dining car recipes,
> > as a point in fact) that sometimes an arbitrary choice between two
> > equal alternatives is required--some choice, even a bad one, is oft
> > better than no choice.
> >
> > (The proximate cause of this learning was a dispute over whether to use
> > the Santa Fe recipe or the Pennsylvania Railroad recipe for something or
> > other on Amtrak dining cars.  Ex-SF folks wanted one, ex-PRR folks
> > wanted the other, and both were ready to argue to the death to such a
> > point that the item was likely never to make it to the menu. As
> > I said, it was a long time ago.)
> >
> > --
> >
> > Blogging From Pine View Farm (http://www.pineviewfarm.net/weblog).
> > Updates daily.  Worthwhile updates occasionally.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Hpr mailing list
> > Hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
> > http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dave Morriss <dave.morriss at gmail.com>
> To: hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 22:00:42 +0100
> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Visibility of the show queue/calendar
> On 22/04/13 19:40, Ken Fallon wrote:
> > On Mon, 22 Apr 2013 18:52:28 +0100
> > Dave Morriss <dave.morriss at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I just wanted to express my regret that the show list on the calendar
> page
> >> has been removed.
> >>
> >> I understand Ken's view that what appears to be a surfeit of shows might
> >> send out the false message that we can all relax and stop sending
> >> contributions. However, I don't think that hiding the queue is the right
> >> thing to do.
> >
> > I only started listing them a year ago because it was the easiest way to
> > give feedback on where peoples shows were in the queue. Now the
> processing
> > time has sped up (thanks in no small part to yourself), why do we need it
> > ? You can see that you appear as a host in the list of upcoming hosts.
> Only
> > those that submitted multiple shows would then be effected. Anyway you
> could
> > argue that having the list there spoils the spontaneity of the releases.
>
> Of course, you don't have to look :-)
>
> I think my main reason for commenting was concern that hiding data was
> being seen as the solution to a potential misunderstanding of the true
> state of things. It felt a bit too much like the modern trend to
> simplify everything for fear that people might come to know too much or
> because they haven't the wits to understand it.
>
> It's not something I'd fight to the bitter end about, and if the
> community is happy then so am I. I do like looking inside things so I
> can understand how they work, but I can't expect everyone to like "guts".
>
> >> After all, 34 shows and 142 slots is still a shortage.
> >
> > Yes but on once the free slots hits 0, I just move the date to December
> 31
> > next year and bam we're short 253 shows. That's more than two and a half
> > times as many shows as Chess Griffins Linux Reality !
>
> I'd probably set a rolling threshold rather than the arbitrary end of
> the current calendar year. Alternatively I'd want to show that at the
> current rate of flow the queue will be exhausted by date X.
>
> >> I would sooner see a graphic (pie chart, "fuel gauge" or something)
> >> making it clear that the need for more shows is still acute. There's
> >> no accounting for human psychology, but I'd have thought being up
> >> front about the situation is better than hiding it.
> >
> > So something like a graphical version of this:
> > http://hackerpublicradio.org/have-we-enough-shows.html
>
> Maybe a tad more subtle ...
>
> >> Just my personal view. Being the geek I am I found watching the queue
> >> fascinating.
> >
> > Glad you did. I'd like to hear what other people think as, while I'm
> > admitting nothing, I may be a smigin paranoid about getting shows in the
> > queue.
>
> I for one am glad you are.
>
> > However it's a real problem. On one hand we need shows and on the other
> hand
> > here is a list of *loads* of shows. It might not be obvious that the show
> > you are  submitting will be released sooner. Even if you do that fact may
> > prevent you from wanting to "bump" someone else.
> >
> > Focusing on solutions to what seems to be a problem, the only thing I can
> > think of is instead of having the files listed on the calendar page, we
> > provide a link to it instead. That way the information is visible but
> not in
> > your face.
>
> Well, that would satisfy me, though I'm probably more interested in this
> level of detail than many. One other reason for doing this would be to
> help resolve queries about queue positioning and what may be seen as
> inexplicable delays.
>
> > Solutions to the issue would be appreciated.
>
> Yup.
>
> Dave
>
> --
> David Morriss, Scotland, UK | Dave.Morriss at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Kevin O'Brien <zwilnik at zwilnik.com>
> To: hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 21:41:56 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Show flow rate
> On 04/22/2013 03:56 PM, Ken Fallon wrote:
>
>> During the summer there are no shows submitted. None. Weeks go by
>> without shows going into the queue except from the fallback hosts who
>> respond to the call. I would need to spend a lot of time proving that,
>> but giving the file naming having now upload date, it should be easier
>> to track and graph wait times.
>>
> And as I discussed with Ken previously, I have loaded up my backlog
> because I know other things will come along very soon that will probably
> slow down my recording (for those who don't know, I am Ahuka). I tend to
> spend a lot of time in my garden when the weather is good, and later in the
> summer the work for Ohio LinuxFest will take over. Then in October/November
> I will be thinking about recording for HPR again. So Ken's decision to move
> most of my shows out of the queue for now makes perfect sense. If I find
> some free time to record over the summer that is great, but it won't be my
> first priority, and apparently I am pretty typical that way.<g>
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Kevin B. O'Brien
> zwilnik at zwilnik.com
> http://google.me/+kevinobrien
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Fifty OneFifty <fiftyonefifty at linuxbasement.com>
> To: "hpr at hackerpublicradio.org" <hpr at hackerpublicradio.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 22:49:51 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Hpr Digest, Vol 55, Issue 16
> Matthew K,
>
> Have you not just defined ken_fallon?
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 2:00 PM, <hpr-request at hackerpublicradio.org>wrote:
>
>> Send Hpr mailing list submissions to
>>         hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
>>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>         hpr-request at hackerpublicradio.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>         hpr-owner at hackerpublicradio.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Hpr digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: Visibility of the show queue/calendar (Matthew K)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2013 12:54:47 -0600
>> From: Matthew K <littlecodemonkey at gmail.com>
>> To: hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
>> Subject: Re: [Hpr] Visibility of the show queue/calendar
>> Message-ID: <51758777.4080908 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> I don't know how much of a solution this is, and this might cause people
>> to be lax about submitting shows with a high queue, but how about when
>> the queue gets below a pre-defined number of shows an automated warning
>> email is sent from the server to this email group reminding people that
>> the queue is low and to get those shows submitted. It could repeat the
>> email daily (really annoying too... maybe in ALL CAPS and in comic sans
>> font with an attached picture of a kitten or something) until the queue
>> is above the threshold again, although it wouldn't put a "queue is back
>> above threshold" message. People could just figure that out from the
>> lack of emails.
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>
>> On 04/22/2013 12:40 PM, Ken Fallon wrote:
>> > Solutions to the issue would be appreciated. Ken.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Hpr mailing list
>> Hpr at hackerpublicradio.org
>> http://hackerpublicradio.org/mailman/listinfo/hpr_hackerpublicradio.org
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Hpr Digest, Vol 55, Issue 16
>> ***********************************
>>
>
>
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